U N R E D A C T E D 448 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE WESTERN DIVISION ------------------------------------------------------- ANA PATRICIA CHAVEZ, CECILIA ) SANTOS, JOSE FRANCISCO ) CALDERON, ERLINDA FRANCO, AND ) DANIEL ALVARADO, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) NO. 03-2932-Ml/P ) ) NICOLAS CARRANZA, ) ) Defendant. ) ------------------------------------------------------- TRIAL PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE HONORABLE JON PHIPPS MCCALLA, JUDGE NOVEMBER 2, 2005 VOLUME III BRENDA PARKER OFFICIAL REPORTER SUITE 942 FEDERAL BUILDING 167 NORTH MAIN STREET MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE 38103 449 A P P E A R A N C E S Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs: BASS BERRY & SIMS PLC 315 DEADERICK STREET, SUITE 2700 NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37238-3001 By: DAVID R. ESQUIVEL, ESQ. CAROLYN PATTY BLUM, ESQ. CENTER FOR JUSTICE & ACCOUNTABILITY 291 WEST 12TH STREET NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10014 MATTHEW J. EISENBRANDT, ESQ. CENTER FOR JUSTICE & ACCOUNTABILITY 870 MARKET STREET, SUITE 684 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94102 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant: FARGARSON & BROOKE 65 UNION AVENUE 9TH FLOOR MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE 38103 By: ROBERT M. FARGARSON, ESQ. BRUCE BROOKE, ESQ. 450 W I T N E S S I N D E X WITNESS PAGE LINE LUIS RAMIREZ DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. EISENBRANDT: ................... 461 9 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FARGARSON: ..................... 464 18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. EISENBRANDT: ................... 471 23 ERLINDA FRANCO DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ESQUIVEL: ...................... 474 8 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FARGARSON: ..................... 494 17 CECILIA SANTOS DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. BLUM: .......................... 506 6 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FARGARSON: ..................... 564 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. BLUM: .......................... 577 18 JOSE LUIS GARCIA DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. EISENBRANDT: .................... 580 8 451 E X H I B I T I N D E X EXHIBIT NUMBER PAGE LINE Exhibit Number 8 Photograph 477 19 Exhibit Number 9 Photograph 490 2 Exhibit Number 10 Army Ordinance 595 5 452 1 WEDNESDAY MORNING & AFTERNOON 2 NOVEMBER 2, 2005 3 The jury trial in this case resumed on this 4 date, Wednesday, November 2, 2005, at 9:00 o'clock a.m., 5 when and where evidence was introduced and proceedings 6 were had as follows: 7 8 ____________ 9 10 THE COURT: All right. Our juror number two 11 had asked to see us, and that's Ms. Fields, so we will 12 have Ms. Fields come in and we will see what she needs to 13 talk to us about. If it is possible, we will just have 14 her have a seat in seat one and do it from there. Counsel 15 may want to get to your table just so that you're in 16 position. We will -- as soon as your client gets here, we 17 will take care of that matter. 18 MR. FARGARSON: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Yes, if Ms. Fields would come in. 20 (Juror Fields came into the courtroom.) 21 BY THE COURT: 22 Q. How are you doing this morning? 23 A. I'm great. How are you? 24 Q. Okay. You said you needed to tell me, and I assumed it 25 was something we could say in front of everybody, maybe it is 453 1 not. Do you want to speak to me privately at side bar? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The lawyers will have to come up. 4 A. That's okay. 5 THE COURT: Let's come around to side bar. 6 (The following proceedings had at side-bar 7 bench.) 8 BY THE COURT: 9 Q. Yes, ma'am. 10 A. What it was, was this morning I called -- well, I have 11 a co-worker that works with me, and I was -- he was working on 12 a problem with me for a printer at work, so I was calling him 13 to let him know that I would be out for three weeks because I 14 was on jury duty and I wouldn't be able to work to get the 15 printer. And so he said, oh, three weeks, he said you're on 16 the trial, and I said I can't talk about it. And then he 17 said -- he proceeded to say, well, Nicolas Carranza and my 18 family are good friends, and I said I can't talk about it. 19 Now, we are not close co-workers. He works in one building, I 20 work in another building. I don't see him on a daily basis. 21 Q. Okay. That's important. 22 A. We have never -- 23 Q. Would that tend to -- 24 A. Not at all. 25 Q. -- affect you at all? 454 1 A. Not at all. 2 Q. I think you answered the main question was were you 3 real close friends, and the answer he's more of an 4 acquaintance? 5 A. He's more of an acquaintance more than a co-worker. 6 Q. You wouldn't feel like you were under some obligation 7 to try to satisfy him? 8 A. No, not at all. 9 THE COURT: Let me see if there are -- but you 10 did exactly the right thing to tell us, that's exactly the 11 right thing to do. Any questions from plaintiffs' 12 counsel? 13 MS. BLUM: No. 14 MR. ESQUIVEL: No, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Or defense counsel? 16 MR. FARGARSON: No. 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q. I don't think that's a problem. Just remember don't 19 advise your fellow jurors of what your co-worker said, that 20 would be a problem. 21 A. I haven't discussed it with anyone. 22 Q. And you can't even consider it at all. 23 A. I understand, but that's why I -- 24 Q. You did exactly the right thing. Thank you so much, we 25 will let you go back. We will call y'all in hopefully in just 455 1 a few minutes. 2 A. Okay. Thank you. 3 (Juror Fields went back into the jury room.) 4 MR. FARGARSON: Judge, I brought my hearing aid 5 and put it in this ear. 6 THE COURT: Good. 7 MR. FARGARSON: Because this is a big 8 courtroom, I can hear all right, it's -- 9 THE COURT: It is a little hard, I think it 10 echoes. 11 MR. FARGARSON: It does, and it is -- when 12 people are over in that corner and you all are way over 13 here, it is kind of hard. 14 THE COURT: It is very hard, and you don't even 15 have to have a hearing aid for that to be a problem. 16 MR. FARGARSON: What I want you to know if it 17 starts buzzing, then let me know. 18 MS. BLUM: It could be me, I buzz too. I have 19 got a hearing aid. 20 MR. FARGARSON: Because I was in Tipton County 21 one time and everybody was looking around and they were 22 all hearing this high pitch ring, and I couldn't even hear 23 it and, you know, I'm looking at everybody and all of a 24 sudden they start looking at me, and I finally figured out 25 it was this. 456 1 THE COURT: It will ring sometimes. My mom has 2 them and my wife deals with hearing aids all the time and 3 so everybody should -- we should be -- for both of you, if 4 there is an issue, we will let you know tactfully, because 5 I think it is important to have the hearing aid, I don't 6 have any problem with that, and I agree with you, it is 7 sometimes hard to hear. And in this room, we know it is 8 kind of barney, open, and the other thing is I have so 9 much electrical equipment around me that it is -- that's 10 one reason I have everybody wear their mics, I'm hearing 11 lots of other noises, and that's so important for you to 12 wear the mics. So good, that's good. 13 Yes, sir. 14 MR. BROOKE: I wanted to go ahead and present 15 for identification Exhibit A, which we would submit would 16 come under the same provision that Your Honor has referred 17 for the Truth Commission as a public record in court. 18 It's a congressional report of their activity involving 19 the hearings of Robert White for consideration as 20 appointment and his nomination. 21 THE COURT: I think these are somewhat 22 different, but I might be wrong. I mean -- 23 MR. ESQUIVEL: They are not reports under 24 803(8), Your Honor, they're not pursuant to an 25 investigation. 457 1 THE COURT: That's what I have understood. 2 MR. BROOKE: Well, It was an investigation as 3 to his merit to be appointed, I submit. 4 THE COURT: Well -- 5 MR. ESQUIVEL: But -- 6 THE COURT: It's a different process that 7 initiates the report, I think that's fundamentally a 8 problem; is that right? 9 MR. ESQUIVEL: I believe that's right, Your 10 Honor. And procedurally, it is not a document that is 11 listed on potential exhibits in the pretrial order. 12 THE COURT: That's also true, but it could be 13 used in cross, and that wouldn't necessarily have to have 14 been listed, so I think counsel -- Mr. Brooke is right in 15 that regard, but we agree that we would mark it as an A so 16 that we won't have a sequential question. It always comes 17 up with the panel, and sometimes we have some ID only 18 exhibits, but if we can avoid that confusion, it's a 19 little better. 20 On the question of the 802 -- 803(2) question 21 as to the statements of a co-worker, I'm going to let you 22 go into the questions if you wish to a little bit more. 23 The Sixth Circuit decided in United States versus Joseph 24 Arnold with a dissent by Judge Sutton, which I referred to 25 the other day, some of the questions relative to the 458 1 application of that rule, and I assume that you have 2 looked at this opinion. 3 MR. EISENBRANDT: We saw that last night, Your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: Right. There is a -- and of 6 course, we have to follow the law as established in the 7 Sixth Circuit. I was trying to determine if this was 8 going to an en banc, and I was at one point under the 9 impression it might, just because I thought it might, 10 because there's a strong dissent and sometimes people 11 petition. I thought a petition had been filed, but I'm 12 checking on that this morning. I don't think it has been 13 vacated at this point, so that means that it is still the 14 applicable law in the Sixth Circuit. The first circuit 15 has already filed, submitted a case distinguishing and/or 16 criticizing this opinion. That really doesn't help us 17 very much in the context of the application of the rule. 18 Well, you have seen the opinion. You know that it is 19 rather difficult to -- you have got to show some specific 20 things, so that's where we are on that. 21 MR. ESQUIVEL: I think Mr. Eisenbrandt has read 22 it. 23 THE COURT: I keep looking to your senior 24 counsel. 25 MR. EISENBRANDT: That's all right, I don't 459 1 mind. 2 THE COURT: You have read this and you will see 3 what you need to do? 4 MR. EISENBRANDT: Yes, Your Honor, as long as 5 you're amenable, we will follow up on the testimony on 6 that and see if we have enough for admissibility. 7 THE COURT: See how it comes out. I think 8 that's -- do we have everybody now? 9 THE CLERK: She just walked in. 10 THE COURT: I am very pleased with Ms. Fields, 11 she did exactly the right thing. So any questions about 12 the juror's responses to an inappropriate statement, but 13 the person maybe didn't know that. Okay. 14 MR. BROOKE: Your Honor, will we have about 15 five minutes before we start? 16 THE COURT: You should have about five minutes. 17 (The court took up another matter unrelated to 18 this case.) 19 THE COURT: All right. We can have the witness 20 come back around. 21 We have -- we have done some experimenting. 22 What we're going to try to do in the next day or two is 23 have them simply remove some of the lights above the 24 screen. It really does affect the screen a lot, but if it 25 is a terrible problem, let us know. And we may -- if 460 1 we're not going to be using the screen, we can just turn 2 all the lights on. There's a lot more light actually in 3 the room than people physically need, but sometimes they 4 feel better if it is brighter, so we will try to handle it 5 that way. But we did several checks on it and the screen 6 is -- the large screen is much harder to see without 7 the -- with the additional light. If the jury wants the 8 light on, we will turn it on anyway. I think we're set. 9 We're ready to go. Bring the jury in. Have everybody 10 stand. 11 (Jury in at 9:17 a.m.) 12 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated. 13 Counsel may proceed. 14 MR. EISENBRANDT: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT - LUIS RAMIREZ 461 1 (Miguel Angel Urrutia previously sworn to 2 interpret from English into Spanish and Spanish into 3 English.) 4 LUIS RAMIREZ, 5 was thereupon called as a witness on behalf of the 6 Plaintiffs, and having been first duly sworn, was 7 examined and testified as follows: 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) 9 BY MR. EISENBRANDT: 10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rameriz. 11 A. Good morning to all. 12 Q. Yesterday, you testified to some of the things that you 13 saw at the San Jose School, is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And when we left off yesterday -- and when we left off 16 yesterday, you testified that you had gone into hiding after 17 seeing several armed men in a pickup truck, is that correct? 18 A. Totally true. 19 Q. At the moment that you saw the men being loaded into 20 the pickup truck, how did you feel? 21 A. I felt very afraid and I thought that this could also 22 happen to those of us who were too close. 23 Q. So then where was it that you went next? 24 A. I walked quickly to the place where I was inside, the 25 San Jose School, and I stayed with the priest that I mentioned DIRECT - LUIS RAMIREZ 462 1 yesterday for two hours. 2 Q. Can you describe for us what that place was like where 3 you went? 4 A. Yes, there might have been some 25 meters between the 5 place where I saw the men getting the victims on the vehicle, 6 and I went towards a carpentry shop, and there is where I 7 stayed for that length of time. 8 Q. While you were in the carpentry shop, how were you 9 feeling during that time? 10 A. I felt very afraid and with a lot of terror, but I was 11 in the company of the priest at all times, and that helped me 12 very much in order to overcome. 13 Q. And you testified you were there about two hours and 15 14 minutes or two hours and 30 minutes, is that correct? 15 A. Yes, that is correct. 16 Q. How was it that you decided after that amount of time 17 to leave the carpenter shop? 18 A. I was there with that same concern and I was thinking 19 that my colleagues, male and female attorneys were also there 20 and that they might have been also subject of the same 21 circumstances, meaning at that time, I did not know what had 22 happened, but I was very afraid; and in the end, everything 23 seemed so lonely that I simply gave in to the point at which I 24 thought that those facts were already over. 25 Q. How did you exit the carpentry shop? DIRECT - LUIS RAMIREZ 463 1 A. I left walking in the company of the priest who later 2 went to a different place, some other place, and I walked 3 quickly to find out what had happened. 4 Q. Where did you walk to? 5 A. I went inside the building where allegedly there were 6 people who were meeting, people from the FDR and our office 7 which was next door to that. 8 Q. How long did it take you to get from the carpentry shop 9 to the offices? 10 A. Perhaps two or three minutes. 11 Q. So what did you see when you got there? 12 A. I met only with a female colleague named Rosa Pena who 13 told me of the facts and also told me that she had been beaten 14 by heavily armed men in civilian clothes. 15 Q. What was her -- in what physical state was she when she 16 was telling you this? 17 A. The woman was pale, she felt very afraid, and she was 18 shivering, her body was trembling, she was totally impressed 19 by the facts. 20 Q. Was she crying? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Tell us exactly what it was that she told you. 23 THE COURT: Well, the objection was raised 24 under 802 -- 803(2) and in light of United States versus 25 Arnold, there's an insufficient basis to allow the DIRECT - LUIS RAMIREZ 464 1 statement. 2 BY MR. EISENBRANDT: 3 Q. Mr. Ramirez, where did you go next? 4 A. The offices were closed afterwards and the people 5 disappeared, and I also went to my house without speaking, nor 6 without telling anybody anything. 7 Q. And why didn't you say anything to anybody? 8 A. The moment did not lend itself for such a conversation. 9 I, who had lived through direct testimony from victims of 10 tortures and violations to their human rights, I was not going 11 to be the person to speak to others so as to perhaps bring on 12 something similar upon me. 13 MR. EISENBRANDT: Thank you, Your Honor. I 14 pass the witness. 15 THE COURT: Certainly. Cross examination? 16 MR. FARGARSON: Yes, Your Honor. 17 CROSS EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. FARGARSON: 19 Q. I only have a few questions, but if I ask something you 20 don't understand, you let me know and I will repeat the 21 question. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. How old were you when the event you testified about 24 happened? 25 THE INTERPRETER: Please, sir, come again. CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 465 1 BY MR. FARGARSON: 2 Q. How old was he in 1980 when these events took place 3 that he's testifying about. 4 A. I don't know exactly what you mean. 5 Q. Your age, your -- how old you were, how long you had 6 lived by 1980 when these events you're testifying about 7 happened? Now do you understand? 8 A. Yes. I would have been 22 or 23 years of age. 9 Q. All right. And if I understood what you said, you were 10 going to work that day? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And on your way at approximately 9:00 o'clock in the 13 morning, you saw a military vehicle? 14 A. Yes, I saw it. 15 Q. And was it a large vehicle to carry military people in 16 or was it some type of armored vehicle? 17 A. I believe it was a truck belonging to the Salvadoran 18 armed forces. Impossible to mistake it because we saw them 19 every once in awhile, practically every day. 20 Q. Was it one truck or more than one truck? 21 A. It was one single truck. 22 Q. And did I understand you correctly that you said there 23 were approximately 30 men? 24 A. Between 20 and 30 men. 25 Q. All right. Were they in the truck or out of the truck? CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 466 1 A. Some were inside the truck, others were outside. 2 Q. How many were outside the truck? 3 A. I do not recall. Maybe 10 or 12 men. 4 Q. The ones that were outside the truck, what were they 5 doing? 6 A. They were standing looking all over kind of in 7 expectation of what might happen. 8 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that last part that you 9 said, that you translated. 10 A. They were standing and they were looking all around in 11 expectation of what might happen. 12 Q. Okay. Did I understand you correctly to say that as 13 you kept walking, you were about 15 meters from the military 14 men? 15 A. Yes, that is correct. 16 Q. And so we can get an idea of what 15 meters would be, 17 would that be as far as where you are to where I am or 18 thereabout? 19 A. A bit further back. 20 Q. Is that approximately? 21 THE INTERPRETER: He said a bit further back. 22 BY MR. FARGARSON: 23 Q. Okay. As far as I am from Mr. Icaza, this far? 24 A. Perhaps the first person outside. 25 Q. Okay. As you walked near the military men, did anyone CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 467 1 of them say anything to you or try to stop you or prevent you 2 from going on? 3 A. No, I simply kept walking quickly. 4 Q. Did any of them threaten you in any way? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Or say anything at all to you? 7 A. Not really, no. 8 Q. Now, the men that you saw that were military men, did I 9 understand you to say that they were in some type of green 10 uniforms? 11 A. Yes, they were wearing olive green uniforms. 12 Q. And do you know if there was one particular branch of 13 the military that wore olive green uniforms? 14 A. No, I was not able to tell, but they were members of 15 the army. 16 Q. Okay. But as to which branch, you don't know? 17 A. No, I do not know, but in reality one of the garrisons 18 is perhaps one kilometer and a half from the place where these 19 events took place. It is the first brigade of infantry known 20 as the San Carlos Garrison which also had a background. We 21 had testimony in our office in the sense that this garrison 22 had captured persons on several occasions. 23 Q. Well, were these -- were these men in this truck from 24 that place that you just identified? 25 A. I would not be sure. I am not sure. CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 468 1 Q. Okay. Were you aware that different branches of the 2 military wore different colored uniforms? 3 A. There were no big differences in them. It was only the 4 public security force that had a different uniform. They were 5 brown, and the rest of them were all green with some slight 6 differences. 7 Q. Now, when you got to the school, you saw a pickup 8 truck? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you saw four men? 11 A. Four men, but there was one more who was pushing a 12 person inside the vehicle. 13 Q. Okay. The first four that you saw, two of them were in 14 the pickup and two of them were on the outside? 15 A. They were on the pickup -- on top of the pickup, and 16 the other two were down on the floor. 17 Q. All right. And then you saw another man, a fifth man 18 dragging someone to the pickup? 19 A. Trying to get him on the pickup by force. 20 Q. Did any of the five men that were around the pickup in 21 the pickup have on military uniforms? 22 A. No, no. There was one only who was wearing a T-shirt 23 which was similar to the T-shirts worn by the army. 24 Q. Wearing a what? 25 THE INTERPRETER: A T-shirt. CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 469 1 Q. Okay. Did they have -- did they all have on civilian 2 clothes? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did they all have masks? 5 A. No, not that I recall. 6 Q. Did any of them have masks? 7 A. No. Only the person who was detained was blindfolded. 8 Q. Did any of them have head coverings, hats or anything 9 on their head? 10 A. Yes, there was -- yes, there was one of them with a hat 11 made of cloth. 12 Q. Was there only one that on a hat or head covering? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you see the pickup truck leave the school? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you see the military truck and the people that you 17 say were military men leave the area where you saw them? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Now, after this was over with and you talked to 20 Ms. Pena, you said you went home and you didn't tell anybody 21 about this? 22 A. No. 23 Q. When did you tell somebody about it? 24 A. I spoke -- after I identified one of the persons -- I 25 identified the person on television, I didn't really talk to CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 470 1 anyone either. 2 Q. Okay. When you say you identified the person on 3 television, do you mean you knew who the person was and told 4 somebody about it? 5 A. The person I identified was known publicly, but I did 6 not tell anyone about it either at that time. 7 Q. Who was the person? 8 A. He was a labor leader called Juan Chacon. 9 Q. What type of leader? 10 A. Unionist, union leader. 11 Q. All right. At that time, were you working in the area 12 of human rights? Was that the period of time you were working 13 in human rights making reports and things of that nature? 14 A. Yes, I helped draft the reports. 15 Q. Help what? 16 A. Draft reports. 17 Q. Okay. Did you draft a report about this incident or 18 event at that time in the course of your normal work with your 19 organization? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you know Nicolas Carranza in 1980? 22 A. Sometime in the papers. 23 Q. Sometimes in the paper? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And what was he, what position did he hold? CROSS - LUIS RAMIREZ 471 1 A. I don't know whether he was vice-minister of public 2 security or whether he was in the government junta because we 3 had just had a coup d’etat. 4 Q. Other than the one individual that you identified on 5 television, did you ever identify any other individuals as 6 being a part of what you saw and have testified about? 7 A. You mean the victim? 8 Q. No, no, not the victims, I thought he was talking about 9 someone that he thought that he saw and was responsible, that 10 he identified some of the men that were there at the scene; 11 did I misinterpret that? 12 A. No. 13 MR. FARGARSON: Your Honor, excuse me just a 14 moment. 15 THE COURT: Certainly. 16 BY MR. FARGARSON: 17 Q. Senor Ramirez, do you know what color uniforms the 18 military advisors wore in El Salvador? 19 A. I suppose it was green. 20 MR. FARGARSON: I believe that's all. 21 THE COURT: Redirect? 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. EISENBRANDT: 24 Q. Mr. Ramirez, what nationality were the men you saw in 25 military uniforms? REDIRECT - LUIS RAMIREZ 472 1 A. It was unmistakable, they were Salvadoran. 2 Q. Tell us why you didn't tell anybody about what you saw 3 on November 27th. 4 A. I believe it is important that it be known that at that 5 time the fear was so great that one could not even speak of 6 such a deed. 7 Q. Thank you. 8 A. Or of the worst violations that may have been committed 9 at that time. 10 MR. EISENBRANDT: Thank you. I have no further 11 questions. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much. 13 We will let you step down. 14 THE WITNESS: And Thank you, everyone. 15 (Witness excused.) 16 THE COURT: Who will our next witness be? 17 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, we call the 18 plaintiff, Erlinda Franco. 19 THE COURT: Just to remind counsel, everybody 20 that is sworn in should be sworn in at the podium so we 21 can hear them at the microphone. 22 THE CLERK: Ma'am, if you will raise your right 23 hand to be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear the 24 testimony you are about to give the court and jury in this 25 matter to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 473 1 the truth, so help you God? 2 THE WITNESS: I swear. 3 THE CLERK: Thank you. You may take the 4 witness stand. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 474 1 (Francis Icaza previously sworn to interpret 2 English into Spanish and Spanish into English.) 3 ERLINDA FRANCO, 4 was thereupon called as a witness on behalf of the 5 Plaintiffs, and having been first duly sworn, was 6 examined and testified as follows: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 9 Q. Good Morning, Ms. Franco. 10 A. Good morning. 11 Q. Ms. Franco, where do you live? 12 A. In the Republic of El Salvador in Central America. 13 Q. Have you lived in El Salvador all your life? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what do you do in El Salvador? 16 A. I am a teacher in the rural zone. 17 Q. What ages do you teach? 18 A. Children at the age of 12. 19 Q. What subjects do you teach? 20 A. I am teaching students in the fourth grade, and I teach 21 the fourth fundamental subjects. 22 Q. What are those subjects? 23 A. Mathematics, languages, natural science and social 24 science, as well as physical education and art education. 25 Q. How long have you been a teacher? DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 475 1 A. Nine years. 2 Q. Do you like being a teacher? 3 A. Oh, yes. 4 Q. What do you like about it? 5 A. The children. 6 Q. Do you have brothers and sisters? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And how many? 9 A. Six. 10 Q. Where do you fall in the order of brothers and sisters? 11 A. I'm number seven. 12 Q. Did your brothers and sisters, older brothers and 13 sisters treat you well? 14 A. Could be yes, could be no. 15 Q. What did your father do? 16 THE INTERPRETER: The Interpreter requests 17 permission to consult with the witness on the use of an 18 expression. 19 THE COURT: Certainly. 20 (The interpreter spoke with the witness in 21 Spanish.) 22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter has consulted 23 and has clarification from the witness. 24 THE COURT: Certainly. 25 A. My dad worked for the office of the comptroller. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 476 1 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 2 Q. And what did he do in that job? 3 A. He typed. 4 Q. How long did he do that job? 5 A. It seems to me that for 38 years. 6 Q. What did your mother do? 7 A. She took care of the household chores. She would take 8 care of us. 9 Q. Ms. Franco, how far did you go in school? 10 A. In school, I did my entire elementary school, and then 11 I went on to get a high school diploma. After that, I entered 12 the National University of El Salvador where I graduated from 13 as a teacher. 14 Q. Did you study anything else at the university? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What else did you study? 17 A. I -- I started my studies in law, but I did not finish 18 them. 19 Q. Why didn't you finish your legal studies? 20 A. Because I had to work and take care of my children, and 21 it was very difficult for me to continue in such a difficult 22 course of studies. 23 Q. Ms. Franco, are you married? 24 A. I'm a widow. 25 Q. What was the name of your husband? DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 477 1 A. Manuel DeJesus Franco Ramirez. 2 Q. How did you meet your husband? 3 A. My parents, they had a house, a rather large house and 4 they would let out rooms. And my husband was coming in from 5 the interior of the country, from a department that was pretty 6 far away, coming to the university. And God placed him in my 7 house to protect, and there we met and there we fell in love 8 and we got married. 9 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, may I have 10 permission to approach the witness, please? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 13 Q. Ms. Franco, I have handed you a photograph, is this a 14 photograph of your husband? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, the plaintiffs move 17 this photograph as Exhibit 8 into evidence. 18 THE COURT: So received. 19 (Exhibit Number 8 was marked. Description: 20 Photograph.) 21 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 22 Q. Now, you say that your husband came to San Salvador to 23 study, what did he study? 24 A. He was studying -- well, I'm sorry, when I met him, he 25 was studying law at the National University of El Salvador. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 478 1 Q. Did he finish his studies in law? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did he get any other degrees or do any other university 4 study? 5 A. Correct. He graduated from the course of studies for 6 international relations. 7 Q. And where did he get that degree from? 8 A. He was not given that degree because they killed him. 9 Q. Let me go back and ask you when you all got married. 10 A. March the 11th of 1970. 11 Q. And did you all have any children? 12 A. Yes. Yes, three. And a boy that my husband already 13 had with him, so that made it four children for me. 14 Q. What are the names of your children? 15 A. Francisco, Dax Manuel, Omar and Julio Manuel. 16 Q. Ms. Franco, what was your husband like? 17 A. Oh, he was a very good man, very responsible. He 18 always took care of us. We never lacked food, shelter, health 19 or education, and such was his love for his family that he 20 kept me, his wife, in anonymity, and that way he protected us. 21 Yes, that's how he protected us. And his political life -- I 22 knew of his life in politics, I knew it through the newspapers 23 and from one thing here, one thing there that was told to me. 24 Q. Now, Ms. Franco, you said that he protected your 25 anonymity, why was that necessary? DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 479 1 A. Because he felt he was -- his life was threatened and 2 he didn't want death to come to me as well. This is something 3 I thank him for, but at the same time, I don't thank him for. 4 Q. What do you mean by that? 5 A. Well, on the one hand, anonymity, that anonymity -- 6 well, thanks to that anonymity I am still alive and so are my 7 children, but on the other hand, I don't thank him for having 8 left me alive because of all of the suffering I have endured. 9 Q. Was your husband involved in political organizations? 10 A. According to the newspapers, yes. 11 Q. Was that something that you all talked about in your 12 house? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Is that another way that he protected your anonymity? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. What kind of a father was your husband? 17 A. Very protective, an extreme provider. He was a great 18 father. 19 Q. What did your husband do for a living? 20 A. Since he had his university studies, he would teach 21 school in high schools. After that job, he was also a teacher 22 at the National University of El Salvador. He worked at the 23 economics faculty, economic science faculty. 24 Q. Now, Ms. Franco, I want to talk to you about what 25 happened to your husband in November of 1980. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 480 1 A. Very well. 2 Q. In November of 1980, do you know whether your husband 3 was involved with any particular political party? 4 A. Yes, it was through the newspapers that I realized that 5 he was involved with a particular organization. 6 Q. Do you know what the name of that organization was? 7 A. FDR, that translates into the Revolutionary Democratic 8 Front. 9 Q. What was your husband's role in the FDR? 10 A. I believe that he was one of the leaders because he was 11 the one who would come out and share all those photographs 12 with the other leaders, and since he had studied international 13 relations, he was in charge of the international relations. 14 Q. On November the 27th, 1980, Ms. Franco, tell me what 15 happened that morning. 16 A. In the morning, we got up, I prepared breakfast and we 17 had an appointment with an eye doctor. We were going to take 18 one of our children to the doctor. We had previously agreed 19 to do so, but he told me to change the time of the appointment 20 to another time because he told me he had to give a speech at 21 the school, at the external San Jose and well, then, we 22 couldn't take the child to the doctor. 23 Q. And then did your husband go to the meeting at the San 24 Jose School? 25 A. I don't know. I stayed at home with my children. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 481 1 Q. What was the next thing that you heard about your 2 husband? 3 MR. FARGARSON: Excuse me, please, David, is 4 that is going to be hearsay? 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Let's talk about it 6 briefly at side bar. 7 (The following proceedings had at side-bar 8 bench.) 9 THE COURT: Certainly, Mr. Fargarson is right 10 that the question elicits hearsay, I think. I'm not sure 11 what she is going to tell us, so I'm not sure what the 12 response is anticipated to be. 13 MR. ESQUIVEL: Well, I think she is going to 14 say, you know, that she heard a radio broadcast that said 15 that the leaders of the FDR had been taken, and it is not 16 being offered for the truth of the fact that they had been 17 taken, but for her response and what she did afterwards. 18 THE COURT: Okay, I have to explain to the jury 19 that. 20 MR. FARGARSON: I think she could say that she 21 heard on the radio that he was dead, but I don't think she 22 can testify about a lot of other facts that was given on 23 the radio, about what someone said about the death and 24 things like that, but I think, David, it is all right for 25 her to be able to say that she heard on the radio that her DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 482 1 husband was dead. 2 MR. ESQUIVEL: She doesn't have any personal 3 knowledge about it. 4 MR. FARGARSON: I know that. 5 MR. ESQUIVEL: About who was there. So it is 6 fine if she just limits it to she heard the announcement 7 and that caused her then to do something else. 8 THE COURT: Did she hear he had been killed or 9 that he had been taken? 10 MR. ESQUIVEL: Not in that first broadcast, she 11 didn't know he had been killed. 12 MR. BROOKE: She had indicated that the 13 national army -- 14 THE COURT: Well, let me explain to the jury 15 that sometimes information is received not for the truth 16 of the matter, but because we need to know what they did 17 next. 18 MR. FARGARSON: Just so she didn't get into all 19 that other stuff. 20 (The following proceedings were had in open 21 court.) 22 THE COURT: The -- sometimes information is 23 received to tell us why somebody did the next thing that 24 they did. It is not received for the truth of the matter 25 contained therein. And an example of that is if the fire DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 483 1 department received a call which said there's a fire at 2 the Orpheum Theater, and they went to the Orpheum Theater 3 and they get there and there's no fire, but they observed 4 something, they see something or they do something. They 5 could say I got a call that said there was a fire at the 6 Orpheum Theater, it doesn't mean there was a fire at the 7 Orpheum Theater, it means they got a call and said there 8 was a fire at the Orpheum Theater. This is the same thing 9 where if you hear something on the radio and, therefore, 10 you then take a particular action or you do something, 11 this is received for that purpose at this point in time, 12 so you may ask what she heard and hear what she heard 13 because we need to know that she got notice and she then 14 took another step, but it is not received again for the 15 truth. And always listen carefully for information that 16 is received. Sometimes the key thing is this is what I 17 was told, not that this is the truth, it might not be 18 accurate, it might be accurate, but I did something in 19 response to that. This is received not for the truth of 20 matter contained therein, but you may ask the question. 21 MR. ESQUIVEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 22 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 23 Q. Ms. Franco, did you hear something later that morning 24 or that day about your husband and the other FDR leaders? 25 A. Yes. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 484 1 Q. Where did you hear that? 2 A. At right about 1:00 midday, an acquaintance came to 3 tell me that she heard about the capture on the radio. 4 Q. And after she came to tell you that, what did you do? 5 A. I grabbed my four children, and I went directly to the 6 law school at the National University to look for anyone that 7 I knew to help me, because I was all by myself. 8 Q. Did you find someone at the university? 9 A. No one, they had all vanished. 10 Q. And what were you feeling at that particular moment? 11 A. Oh, I felt I could die. 12 Q. What did you do at that point? 13 A. I returned with my children once again to my house to 14 await news over the radio. 15 Q. What was the next thing that you heard about your 16 husband and the other FDR leaders? 17 MR. FARGARSON: Excuse me just a moment. 18 THE COURT: I think this is the same situation, 19 I think we're down to that point that counsel is inquiring 20 about, so I think we discussed this at side bar, am I 21 correct? 22 MR. ESQUIVEL: That's correct, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I think then this is that point we 24 arrived at, I think we can proceed. 25 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 485 1 Q. What was the next thing that you heard about your 2 husband, Ms. Franco? 3 A. Well, when I went home, I grabbed some things, I went 4 over to my parents' house, which was really close by, and 5 there with my parents and my sisters, we heard over the radio 6 that some bodies had been found on the road to Asino. Asino 7 is a location within the municipality of Ilopango, which is in 8 the department of El Salvador. 9 Q. Ms. Franco, did the report say whether your husband was 10 among the bodies that had been found? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you find out later whether -- what had happened to 13 your husband? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. How did you find out about that? 16 A. On the radio, they said that the bodies were at that 17 place and that it was presumed that they were the leaders of 18 the FDR. They also said that we could go to the San Antonio 19 Funeral Home to identify the bodies. That was about three 20 blocks -- no, no, sorry, about some five blocks from the San 21 Jacinto neighborhood, which is the neighborhood where we 22 lived. 23 Q. And did you go to the funeral home to identify your 24 husband? 25 A. Yes. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 486 1 Q. When did you do that? 2 A. On the very same night of November the 27th. 3 Q. Who else was there? 4 A. At the funeral home or with me? 5 Q. Who was with you? 6 A. My mother. 7 Q. And who was at the funeral home? 8 A. At the funeral home, well, there were the bodies on the 9 ground, on the floor, and there was some men, men I have never 10 seen before, but I presume that they were policemen dressed in 11 civilian clothes, they were all around the funeral home and 12 also inside. And then when I saw those men that were staring 13 at us, well, it was just my mother and I. And then I deduced, 14 because on the radio they said men in civilian clothes -- 15 MR. FARGARSON: Excuse me, Your Honor, I want 16 to object. This is hearsay. 17 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 18 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 19 Q. Without saying what you heard on the radio, Ms. Franco, 20 would you continue to describe for the jury the men in 21 civilian clothes that you saw at the funeral home? 22 A. Well, I saw them, I looked at them, and they had these 23 scowls on their faces, and I began to scream at them, I cursed 24 them. And then my mother told me to calm down, so then I had 25 to calm down, and then, well, after that, I didn't stare at DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 487 1 them anymore, well, because my mom was there, and she is a 2 very elderly woman at the time, and I didn't want to put her 3 in a compromising position. 4 Q. Why did you scream and curse at them? 5 A. Because I imagined that they had killed him. 6 Q. Did you see your husband's body in the funeral home, 7 Ms. Franco? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, may I have 10 permission to approach the witness, please? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. FARGARSON: David, is that -- 13 MR. ESQUIVEL: That's the photograph from the 14 funeral home. 15 MR. FARGARSON: Your Honor, could we approach? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 Why don't you go ahead and take a restroom 18 break at this time? Why don't we make this a 15-minute 19 restroom break? We will come back in 15 minutes. Don't 20 discuss the case among yourselves, don't let anybody talk 21 with you. We will see you in 15 minutes. Thank you. 22 (Jury out at 10:25 a.m.) 23 (The following proceedings had at side-bar 24 bench.) 25 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, we want to introduce DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 488 1 a photograph of Mr. Franco's body in order to demonstrate 2 what she will describe as the burn mark around his neck. 3 THE COURT: She saw his body? 4 MR. ESQUIVEL: She saw his body. 5 THE COURT: Sure. Any question? 6 MR. FARGARSON: Well, your Honor, I object. I 7 think -- I mean there has been statements -- there has 8 been testimony about it. That's highly, to me, 9 inflammatory. 10 THE COURT: I have gotten where I see so many 11 bad things -- I agree it is unpleasant, but I don't think 12 it is such a -- it is not so grotesque as to be 13 imflammatory. 14 MR. BROOKE: The probative value, Your Honor, I 15 don't know what it helps the trier of fact to -- 16 THE COURT: It corroborates their theory that 17 there were marks around his neck because it shows it. 18 They want to show that he was killed in a particular way. 19 MR. ESQUIVEL: That's correct, Your Honor. 20 MR. FARGARSON: I just don't like it. Isn't 21 that a good objection? 22 THE COURT: I think that's a very good point, 23 but I think we probably have to let it come in. 24 MR. FARGARSON: I think Patty gets -- wonders 25 about some of my legal objections. She looks at me kind DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 489 1 of astounded. I don't think she knows whether to take me 2 seriously or not. 3 MS. BLUM: Good point. 4 THE COURT: Well, there's a sound legal basis, 5 and -- but unfortunately I have to overrule the objection. 6 MR. FARGARSON: Anyway, we except. 7 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take our break. 8 MR. FARGARSON: 15 minutes? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 THE CLERK: All rise. This honorable court 11 stands in recess for 15 minutes. 12 (Recess taken at 10:26 until 10:45 a.m.) 13 (Jury in at 10:45 a.m.) 14 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated, and 15 counsel may proceed. 16 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, may I have 17 permission to approach the witness, please? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 20 Q. Ms. Franco, I've handed you a picture, is this a 21 picture of what your husband looked like at the funeral home 22 when you saw him there? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, the plaintiffs move 25 this photograph into evidence as Exhibit 9. DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 490 1 THE COURT: So received. 2 (Exhibit Number 9 was marked. Description: 3 Photograph.) 4 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 5 Q. Now, Ms. Franco, the jury will have this exhibit and 6 all the exhibits to take back with them in their deliberations 7 and they will be able to look at it there, but would you 8 describe for them now, please, how your husband's body looked 9 when you saw him in the funeral home? And I'm sorry, 10 Ms. Franco, please take whatever time you need. 11 A. He was on the floor. He was lying north to south. He 12 was shoeless, and they had searched his clothes because his 13 pockets had been turned out. They had taken his shirt and 14 drawn it up to here. I could see four gunshot wounds, and I 15 saw -- on his neck, I saw he had signs of torture here. 16 Q. Ms. Franco, is that in the photograph, is that the line 17 that you are talking about you can see on his neck, is that 18 the mark that you're referring to? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. What did it look like? 21 A. That scar appeared -- looked like -- appeared to be a 22 burn as if a metal strap had been placed here. Their faces 23 were very swollen, and here you could see two metal hooks like 24 the ones they use to make barbed wire. 25 Q. Ms. Franco, did you see the bodies of any of the other DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 491 1 leaders of the FDR at the funeral home? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What did they look like? 4 A. They all had the same mark. They all had the wire 5 here. There was one -- there was one that they had sewn, they 6 had sewn here, and they had left the nylon behind. There was 7 another who they had cut off his genitalia in a concave manner 8 like this, and I saw his wife was there and I saw her placing 9 talcum powder here in this area, this part, and I saw her 10 covering him with newspaper. 11 Q. Did you see any other wounds on the bodies of the other 12 leaders? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What were they? 15 A. Gunshots. My husband had four gunshot wounds, and I 16 looked closely at one gunshot wound that he had in his mouth 17 here. 18 Q. Ms. Franco, how old were your children at the time of 19 your husband's murder? 20 A. The oldest boy was 12, the next boy was 10, the next 21 five, and then my little baby, four and a half months old. 22 Q. How did you explain this to your children, what did you 23 tell them? 24 A. I couldn't, I didn't tell them anything. They would 25 ask after their father. I never took them to the wake, nor DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 492 1 any of that, until they got used to the idea that they would 2 never see him again. 3 Q. Were you ever able to explain to them what happened to 4 him? 5 A. Yes, when they were older. 6 Q. How were you able to make ends meet as a widow with 7 four children? 8 A. At the beginning, I had the help of my parents, but 9 once there was -- but there was one time when my mother told 10 me to leave the house. They were very scared, they were 11 scared that they would be killed too. And they were right, I 12 had to leave my house with my children. Then I was at home, 13 in another house with my children. So I searched for work and 14 thank God, the dean of the school of economic science, at that 15 time, he gave me his support, he gave me a job. And thanks to 16 him, I started working from that day onward at the University 17 of El Salvador. I have not stopped working for one single 18 day. 19 Q. Can you describe what effect this murder had on you and 20 your children? 21 A. The effect it had on me, well, I fell into -- I'm 22 sorry. 23 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, may we take a break? 24 THE COURT: I think we should take about a 25 10-minute break. We will be back in 10 minutes. We will DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 493 1 let y'all be excused for 10 minutes. 2 THE CLERK: All rise. This Honorable Court 3 stands in recess. 4 (Recess taken at 11:00 until 11:15 a.m.) 5 THE COURT: Are you feeling okay? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 7 THE COURT: We don't mind taking a break. I 8 waited a little longer so everybody could rest a little 9 bit. 10 THE WITNESS: We can continue. 11 THE COURT: We will bring the jury in. 12 (Jury in at 11:15 a.m.) 13 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated. 14 THE INTERPRETER: If it please the court, the 15 interpreter has some remarks from the witness' last 16 remarks pending interpretation. 17 THE COURT: Absolutely. 18 A. I fell into a state of depression, something that even 19 all the way to today's date, I have yet to be able to 20 overcome. I live with it right here. 21 BY MR. ESQUIVEL: 22 Q. Ms. Franco, I asked you a question and I want to give 23 you the opportunity to answer it, but only if you want to 24 answer the question. Would you like an opportunity to answer 25 that question? DIRECT - ERLINDA FRANCO 494 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What effect did your husband's murder have on you and 3 your family? 4 A. Our lives were completely ruined because we became 5 totally unprotected with no one's help, absolutely no one. 6 And as a consequence, you can understand the needs of a widow 7 with four children. 8 Q. Ms. Franco, why did you bring this lawsuit? 9 A. I brought this lawsuit because 23 years have passed 10 without the opportunity for justice, justice being done in the 11 case of my husband and in the case of the other gentlemen. I 12 got the opportunity for a lawsuit through a law firm, and I 13 have accepted with great pleasure. 14 MR. ESQUIVEL: I pass the witness, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Cross examination? 16 CROSS EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. FARGARSON: 18 Q. Ms. Franco, if I ask you any question that you don't 19 understand, I will be glad to stop and repeat the question, 20 okay? 21 A. Agreed, Mr. Attorney. 22 Q. And I don't have many, but I do have a few questions to 23 ask you about your situation, okay? 24 A. That's okay. 25 Q. You mentioned bringing this lawsuit. CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 495 1 A. I don't understand. 2 Q. Okay. You were asked about why you brought the 3 lawsuit. 4 A. No. 5 Q. You weren't -- okay. Let me try to make it clear. 6 When did you first learn that you could bring a lawsuit in the 7 United States against anyone? 8 A. It was in December of the year 2003. 9 Q. So before the year 2003, you did not know that you 10 could bring a lawsuit in the United States? 11 A. No, I didn't know. 12 Q. Okay. Thank you. You found out that you could bring 13 the lawsuit because some law firm contacted you? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And is the individual or the person who contacted you 16 here in the courtroom today? 17 A. That is so. 18 Q. And who is that person that contacted you in 2003 about 19 a lawsuit in the United States? 20 A. The young lady, Attorney Almunena Bernabeu. 21 Q. Would you identify her in the courtroom, is that her? 22 A. Yes, that's her. 23 Q. But to make it clear, before she called you, you did 24 not know you could bring a lawsuit in the United States? 25 A. Correct. CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 496 1 Q. All right. Thank you. 2 Now, I want to ask you when you went to the funeral 3 home and you saw the men that were there at the funeral home. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were all of the men in civilian clothes? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did any of them have any masks on their face or 8 coverings on their face? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did any of them have on any sombreros or hats? 11 A. No, because, well, that's a funeral home, and it was 12 very late at night. I don't know, maybe if there was someone 13 with one who could be in the surrounding area, but it was very 14 dark there in that area called Barrio Candelaria. 15 Q. Were there any funeral directors or funeral personnel 16 there with you that evening? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did any of the men at the funeral home that were there 19 when you got there have on any type of military uniform or 20 military equipment? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, do you remember when I took your deposition 23 previously in this case? 24 A. Yes, yes, I remember that we were, yes. 25 Q. Okay. And what was Nicolas Carranza's position in El CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 497 1 Salvador at the time of your husband's death? 2 A. I believe -- well, since I wasn't interested in 3 politics, I think he was the head of -- I think he was the 4 head of the national guard or the vice-minister of defense, 5 something like that. 6 Q. Do you remember telling me in your deposition you 7 thought he was the head of the national guard? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Do you have any information that the national 10 guard was responsible for your husband's death? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you express an interest or -- let me take that 13 back. Did you say that you were not interested in prosecuting 14 the people that killed your husband, you were only interested 15 in the one that gave the orders? 16 A. No, I don't recall. 17 Q. Just a moment. Let me ask you if you remember this and 18 if you remember these questions and these answers. 19 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, I object to the 20 reading of deposition testimony. The witness hasn't said 21 anything inconsistent. 22 THE COURT: I simply need to look at it and see 23 if it is appropriate for use. Come around and I will take 24 a look. It could be handed up, but I think I better look 25 at it briefly at side bar. CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 498 1 (The following proceedings had at side-bar 2 bench.) 3 THE COURT: I took the objection to be that the 4 question was not -- that the response was not an 5 impeaching response. 6 MR. ESQUIVEL: That's correct. 7 THE COURT: I just need to read it so I can 8 see, if somebody can show it to me. 9 MR. ESQUIVEL: To clarify the objection, there 10 hasn't been any evidence of inconsistent testimony. 11 THE COURT: That's what I mean. In other 12 words, you can't use the deposition just to read it, and 13 it has to be an impeaching statement, that's correct. You 14 have it, and I don't. It is hard on me. 15 Which question are we talking about? I will 16 let them identify it. 17 MR. FARGARSON: I may not have the right one 18 right there. 19 THE COURT: Was there a page reference earlier? 20 Page and line? 21 MR. ESQUIVEL: Not yet, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: When you do that, there needs to be 23 a page and line reference so we're all on the same page 24 and line. 25 MR. FARGARSON: Well, this is what she said, CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 499 1 that she wasn't interested in suing the individuals that 2 committed the murder, she was interested in only the one 3 that gave the order, if you read this on down. And I 4 thought I asked her that question. 5 THE COURT: Page 20. 6 MR. FARGARSON: I thought I asked her that 7 question, and she said no. Did I not ask that? 8 MR. BROOKE: You did. 9 THE COURT: Let's see. I'm trying to match it 10 up. I'm not sure what this means, that's what I don't 11 know. 12 MR. FARGARSON: Well -- 13 THE COURT: Maybe I better let you tell me 14 which line it is, because I'm having -- I'm like you, it 15 is a little hard to make this match up. 16 MR. FARGARSON: Well, what I had asked her is 17 if she had -- I didn't ask this on the witness stand, I 18 just asked her in this question if she knew the people who 19 killed her husband, and she said yes, she did. I asked 20 her if she was interested in suing them if they were in. 21 THE COURT: The United States. Right. And 22 none of them are in the United States. I don't know. All 23 right. And if they were, with the intention to sue them. 24 If they were in El Salvador -- it says if they were in El 25 Salvador? No, if they were in the states. No. Why not? CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 500 1 Because they merely received orders. Okay. Who did they 2 receive orders from? 3 MR. FARGARSON: From the intellectual author. 4 THE COURT: And I have a feeling that there's 5 an interpretation question going on there. Can you tell 6 me what you understand the election order is? 7 MR. FARGARSON: And then she said the author. 8 THE COURT: I think it is the author of the 9 order. 10 MR. FARGARSON: I think so. 11 THE COURT: The person who authorized the 12 killing. The one who gives the orders, tell me what your 13 understanding -- if there's a question -- 14 MR. FARGARSON: Here is the point: I believe 15 what I asked her is if she was interested in suing the 16 people that killed her husband, and she said no. 17 THE COURT: Right. She said no, no. Why not? 18 Because they merely received orders, and that's -- I mean 19 you're entitled to show that she said no. I think she 20 said no already. 21 MR. ESQUIVEL: I don't think it is inconsistent 22 with her testimony. She has not said anything 23 inconsistent with what is in the deposition. 24 THE COURT: It is the same answer, so it is not 25 proper impeachment testimony. I have to sustain the CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 501 1 objection. It was a little confusing for both of us to 2 read through this because of the translation. Okay. I 3 think we have sorted it out. 4 MR. FARGARSON: Then maybe I was a little 5 premature, I should have said why not, and get this -- 6 THE COURT: Exactly, and see what she says. 7 MR. FARGARSON: And then that may plot 8 something out. 9 THE COURT: Exactly, if it differs. 10 (The following proceedings were had in open 11 court.) 12 THE COURT: Counsel may proceed. 13 BY MR. FARGARSON: 14 Q. Ms. Franco, I had asked you if you were interested in 15 suing the individuals who had actually killed your husband. 16 A. Of course. 17 Q. Well, I thought you just told me no. 18 A. I'll tell you something, Mr. Attorney, I believe you're 19 asking questions in order to confuse me. I apologize, but I 20 wish you would be a little bit more explicit when you ask me 21 these questions, because at this time, my -- I'm not in the 22 best -- I'm not in optimum state. 23 Q. Okay. Well, ma'am, I'm sorry, I'm not at all trying to 24 confuse. I thought it was a relatively simple question, and I 25 thought I had asked you were you interested in suing the CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 502 1 individuals who had killed your husband and you had said no? 2 A. From the moment I am in this country it is because, 3 yes, I want to sue those persons. 4 Q. Okay. And do you know who they are? 5 A. I have no visual proof, I haven't seen anything, but 6 the investigations produce names. 7 Q. Now, in your deposition on page 30, I asked you a 8 question like that, and I asked you on page 20: 9 All right. If they were -- if they were -- and we're 10 talking about the individuals that killed your husband -- if 11 they were, would it be your intention to sue them as well? 12 Your answer was: 13 If they were in El Salvador? 14 And I said: 15 No, if they were in the United States. 16 Do you remember that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You don't remember it? 19 A. I don't recall it. 20 Q. Well, do you deny that that is what you said? 21 A. I don't deny it. 22 Q. You don't deny it? 23 A. I don't deny it. I simply say that I do not recall the 24 question. 25 Q. All right. And then I asked you a question: CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 503 1 Well, why not? 2 And what did you tell me your answer was to the why 3 not, you weren't interested in suing those individuals? 4 MR. ESQUIVEL: Objection, Your Honor. It's not 5 being used for impeachment. 6 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 7 BY MR. FARGARSON: 8 Q. Well, have you brought a lawsuit against anybody else 9 in the United States? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Only Mr. Carranza? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And is the reason you sued Mr. Carranza is because you 14 think he killed your husband? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And what evidence or proof do you have of that, 17 that he killed your husband? 18 A. I trusted the investigations that have been performed, 19 and from there, they show that there is information that he 20 was the intellectual author. 21 Q. Okay. Now, when you use the phrase intellectual 22 author, what do you mean? 23 A. That it was he who gave the order to kill. 24 Q. Okay. So you believe that Mr. Carranza, the defendant 25 in this case, is the one that ordered the death of your CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 504 1 husband and the other five members of the FDR? 2 A. Yes, I believe that. 3 Q. Now, your husband was a member of the FDR? 4 A. Yes, Mr. Attorney. 5 Q. And was your husband a member of any other 6 organizations besides the FDR that you're aware of? 7 A. Yes, I knew of it and I knew of it through the 8 newspapers because that's where it was published. 9 Q. What other organizations was he a member of? 10 A. I also saw him in the paper in the picture where he was 11 a member of the General Association of Salvadoran University 12 students, the AGEUS was its acronym. I also saw him in 13 another photo of an organization called the DRU. I also saw 14 him in another photo founding an organization called the 15 Revolutionary Coordinator of the Masses. And from there, I 16 saw in the newspaper that they had founded the FDR. 17 Q. Was your husband sympathetic to the communist cause? 18 A. He was sympathetic for a change to take place in his 19 people, for his people and with his people. 20 Q. I believe my question was, was he sympathetic to the 21 communists. 22 A. I would imagine so. He never confessed it to me. 23 MR. FARGARSON: Hold on just a moment. 24 Your Honor, that's all the questions I have of 25 Ms. Franco. CROSS - ERLINDA FRANCO 505 1 THE COURT: Certainly. Redirect? 2 MR. ESQUIVEL: Your Honor, I have no redirect 3 questions. 4 THE COURT: Thank you very much. We will let 5 you step down. 6 (Witness excused.) 7 THE COURT: Who will our next witness be? 8 MS. BLUM: Your Honor, it is Cecilia Santos. 9 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the 10 testimony you are about to give the court and jury in this 11 matter to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 12 the truth so help you God? 13 THE WITNESS: I swear. 14 THE COURT: You may take the witness stand. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 506 1 CECILIA SANTOS, 2 was thereupon called as a witness on behalf of the 3 Plaintiffs, and having been first duly sworn, was 4 examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. BLUM: 7 Q. Hi, Ms. Santos. Where is your current residence? 8 A. It's in Genoa, New York. 9 Q. And how long have you lived in the United States? 10 A. Twenty-two years. 11 Q. Where do you currently work? Where do you currently 12 work? 13 A. I work in an organization that is called, its name is 14 Centro Salvardoreno. 15 Q. And what does that organization do? 16 A. We provide information to the people about the right 17 they have in the United States. I'm talking about the 18 immigrant for Latin America, and we also do process through 19 the classes with the immigration, fill the forms. 20 Q. So what would your day-to-day activities in that 21 organization be like? 22 A. Well, it could be a little different from day-to-day. 23 Some day, you can see many people trying to know how they can 24 get any of the authorization to work in the United States, how 25 they can do any process to be legally here. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 507 1 Some other day, I had to accompany them to the 2 immigration office, and on weekends, we have meetings with the 3 community, where we give them the information and how they can 4 come in to work with the system, with the democratic system 5 because it's a difference than we know in El Salvador. 6 Q. And are you married? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what is your husband's name? 9 A. Sifredo Santos. I can spell, it is S-I-F-R-E-D-O, 10 Santos. 11 Q. And what does your husband do? 12 A. He works with a landscaping company. He's a gardener. 13 Q. And how long have you two been married? 14 A. Seven years in January. More than seven years. 15 Q. And do you have any children? 16 A. Yes, I have a boy who is ten years old. 17 Q. So what grade is he in in school? 18 A. The fifth grade. 19 Q. And what is your immigration status here in the United 20 States? 21 A. I am a United States citizen at this moment. 22 Q. When did you become a U. S. citizen? 23 A. September, 1998. 24 Q. What was your date of birth? 25 A. June 3, 1953. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 508 1 Q. So how old does that make you now? 2 A. Excuse me? 3 Q. How old are you now? 4 A. Fifty-two. 5 Q. Okay. And what country are you from? 6 A. From El Salvador. 7 Q. How many brothers and sisters were in your family 8 growing up? 9 A. We were a total of 11. I had six brothers and four 10 sisters. 11 Q. And where were you in the birth order? 12 A. The third one. 13 Q. You were the third child. 14 Could you tell us a little bit about the community that 15 you grew up in in El Salvador? 16 A. The name was Santa Lucia neighborhood. That's a worker 17 family neighborhood. I mean many of the people there work 18 with the government, some of it has different kind of jobs, 19 but it -- if they cannot afford it to help the basic thing at 20 that point. 21 Q. And could you tell us a little more about your family, 22 was your father employed? 23 A. He was employed with the government. He perform his 24 job as a mechanic. I think the name of the department is 25 public works in English. They take care of the roads and the DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 509 1 highways in El Salvador. 2 Q. And what kind of man was your father, how would you 3 describe him? 4 A. My father is a Catholic person, that raise us in 5 Catholic belief, very important principles, to have respect 6 for everybody, to be honest, to develop integrity and to be 7 always a good human being person. 8 Q. Can you give us an example of anything that you 9 witnessed as a child that exemplified these qualities in your 10 father? 11 A. Well, always we had to respect the older person. We 12 had to help anybody that we could, and the important thing is 13 to sustain your principle. If you see something is wrong, 14 something is not good, you had to do some things. And one 15 day, I was maybe nine or ten, when we saw a group of people 16 coming through the backyard of our house in the road, and 17 there was a lot of noises there, and we saw there were three 18 men tied with his fingers in the front of their bodies, and a 19 guard pushing them and beating them. And then my father -- 20 everybody was crying say stop that, don't do that. But my 21 father told one of the guys there, stop that, you don't have 22 the right to beat these men, they're already tied. It he's 23 already detained, take it. And then the guy came and put the 24 rifle in the chest of my father. We ran to him, to his leg 25 and started to cry for him, and some of the people there say, DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 510 1 it is stupid like to do that, and then we finally said okay. 2 That's what I told you, I had to practice in my daily life. 3 Q. What did your mother do? 4 A. Take care of the children, the homemaker. 5 Q. Did you have -- what was your schooling? 6 A. My schooling, well, I -- at the last point, I was -- 7 almost finishing my career in mathematics, I attend the 8 National University of El Salvador. 9 Q. Before you entered the National University, what other 10 schools did you attend? 11 A. Attend elementary, then go to the high school, and then 12 after that, you can apply to be at the university. 13 Q. What high school did you attend? 14 A. San National Institute is the name, the public 15 education in San Salvador, and it is close to the campus of 16 the university also. 17 Q. Were you a good student? 18 A. Well, I think so. 19 Q. And what year did you intend to enter the National 20 University? 21 A. Well, in one way to progress, to be somebody and to 22 help my family, to be a professional; and the only way to do 23 that is to study and to take a degree from the university, and 24 then the other point is it is not possible to do anything else 25 in that environment without receive a diploma, that's why I DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 511 1 decide to go to the university. 2 Q. What year were you supposed to enter the university? 3 A. 1972. 4 Q. And were you able to enter the university at that time? 5 A. Not then. The university was closed for the government 6 and then for the president at that time. 7 Q. And the president at that time was whom, do you 8 remember? 9 A. Colonel Arturo Molina. 10 Q. Do you know why the university was closed? 11 A. I think in those years was the first times you could 12 hear, you could read in the newspaper that the land reform is 13 going to happen in El Salvador, and then there was -- there 14 was a group of peasants having meetings at the campus of the 15 National University, and the government argue that that was a 16 focus for these subversal groups to go in there, to use in the 17 campus for that. And then they closed the university, and we 18 had to wait like a year to -- the door be open, and when the 19 university opened, then we got the surprise that we have 20 security in the campus, and every time you go inside to the 21 university, they had to -- they had a check point to search 22 your body, your bags, everything on your body. 23 Q. What year was it that you could return to the 24 university? 25 A. I could have returned in '73. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 512 1 Q. And what did you say your department of study was? 2 A. Was mathematic, but it is the faculty of art and 3 humanities. 4 Q. And were you also working at this time? 5 A. Yes. I started to work in that year, in '73 for a few 6 months, but I really got the full -- the full-time employment 7 in -- at the end of '74. 8 Q. And what organization were you working for? 9 A. With the ministry of education, is government offices. 10 Q. And what was your job there? 11 A. I had to work with figures of the education. My 12 department was the one to collect the information about the 13 students, about the school. Everything in the area of 14 education, I did it. Different level, we had that in El 15 Salvador. It is called department of statistics studies. I 16 have a little problem pronouncing that. 17 Q. So could you give the jury a sense of what your daily 18 life was like while you were studying -- studying and working? 19 A. Oh, yes. I had to get up early, around 5:00 in the 20 morning because I need to take the bus before 6:00 and to 21 travel for almost an hour. My job started at 7:30 and finish 22 at 3:30. And after that, I had to run to the university where 23 I started my classes in the afternoon through the evening, and 24 I came back to my home every day almost around 10:30 to 11:00, 25 then you had to go do your homework, the laboratories, you had DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 513 1 to do. It is almost everyday I could rest for four and a half 2 hours, and it ended there. 3 Q. What year did you -- how many years were you at the 4 university? You said you returned in -- you started in 1973, 5 how many years did you continue at the university? 6 A. Well, in 1980, I was still in the university, I could 7 not finish my career. 8 Q. How come you were still there in 1980 when you had 9 begun in 1973? 10 A. It is because one time I had to ask for time at the 11 university because I won a scholarship with the United Nation, 12 I think it is called United Nation in Education and Cultural 13 Organization, and I went to Chile, Santiago, Chile in South 14 America to study, take some studies about the census and how 15 to work with the figures to do prediction for the education in 16 El Salvador. That took me like a year, and by then, I had to 17 cut like at the University of Paraguay at the other year, and 18 in 1980, I was almost at the end, I was working already in my 19 thesis, but June of that year, 1980, the university was 20 invaded by the army, the Salvadoran army, guns, soldiers, it 21 was something heavy, helicopters around the campus invade the 22 facilities of the campus, and that was the end of my studies, 23 and many others, because at that time my career in mathematics 24 was only in the National University of El Salvador. 25 Q. During the time that you were a student, were you DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 514 1 involved in any organizations? 2 A. When I was in the university, yes, I was a member with 3 the group called the Association for Salvadoran University 4 Students. 5 Q. That was the same organization that was just mentioned 6 a moment ago? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. That the other lady mentioned. But the -- the specific 10 category was called the faculty -- the faculty directory, I 11 was member of the faculty directory of mathematic because we 12 were having many different kind of problems with our studies 13 and with the tests that the teachers were passing to us, and 14 in that way, what you can discuss -- discuss, excuse me, how 15 to deal with those kind of problems. The mathematical part of 16 the art in humanities faculty by the university authorities 17 want to pass that department and the department of physics and 18 chemistry to another faculties. Physics and mathematic, they 19 want to include to the engineering faculty. 20 Q. And what were the implications of that for you as a 21 student? 22 A. We were losing all the credits we already gained at 23 that time until this time and to lose part of your career. 24 You had to take new credits there. And I was like many 25 others, a student there, poor, that was important to get your DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 515 1 diploma. You don't have all your life to be at the 2 university. 3 Q. How did the organization organize itself or manifest 4 its concerns that you just expressed? 5 A. We had meetings to discuss what we need to do, what 6 kind of complaints we have. And in first step, we go to the 7 chief of the department of mathematic. If he does anything 8 there, then we can go and discuss with the dean of the 9 faculty. Since nothing happened there, one time we decided to 10 march from the department of mathematic to the offices to 11 where is the dean of the faculty. I think we were at that 12 time like maybe 40 -- around 40, 50 students that were in 13 mathematic four that were having problems and we took our then 14 complaint to him. Meanwhile, while we were marching, some of 15 the students in the back of the line were attacked by some of 16 those guys I mentioned before that was inside of the 17 university. They jumped down from one place with machetes, 18 this big knife, machetes, and they wounded some of them. And 19 they say there is -- that we have any right to do any kind of 20 demonstration there. 21 Q. Were you involved in any other organizations besides 22 the student organization? 23 A. In my job. 24 Q. And what was that? 25 A. At the end of 1979, we had a new ministry of education. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 516 1 He was member of the new junta, the military and democratic, I 2 think the name is GEOTA, and we never have -- the workers at 3 the ministry never have health insurance. We have any kind of 4 coverage in health. We also did not receive payment when we 5 work overtime, and many times we had to do it because we had 6 to go to the schools and take their reports and spend the 7 whole day or maybe the night when you go to the site, but we 8 did not receive back the money that we had to spend there, and 9 then we were asking for that, but we had no compensation 10 there. We were told that we had not the right to have any 11 kind of organization because we were public employees. But 12 when this ministry came, he said, well, you can try to do what 13 you need to do. We founded then the Association of Employees 14 of the ministry of education. 15 Q. Did you ever attend any demonstrations? 16 A. With this organization? 17 Q. No, in general. 18 A. Yes, I attend some. 19 Q. How many would you say you attended? 20 A. I remember more or less exactly it had to be like 21 three. A big one once was when after many people was killed 22 in front of the step of the Cathedral, the Metropolitan 23 Cathedral in San Salvador, and we went to the bodies of those 24 people there. That was one. 25 Q. That was one. And can you remember the others? DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 517 1 A. Another one, I think it was something that was big, the 2 biggest thing. I think that was generally in 1980 when 3 everybody was calling, we like a member of that association, 4 waiting by to participate in that. 5 Q. Would the organizations that you worked with, did they 6 support groups that used violence? 7 A. You mean the Association of the Employees? 8 Q. Uh-huh. 9 A. No. In one, we were for the academic thing, and in the 10 other one, the -- trying to get better benefits for us 11 employees. 12 Q. Did you personally support the use of violence? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Were you aware at this time, this is the middle of 1980 15 who Nicolas Carranza was? 16 A. He was the vice-ministry of defense. 17 Q. Okay. And would you say -- could you tell the jury a 18 little bit about what your personal goals for yourself were at 19 this time, at the time the National University closed? 20 A. Well, at that point, I could continue working in the 21 ministry of education, but I also was planning to teach some 22 classes. I really wanted to finish my career because I also 23 need to help my family. It was few months before that my 24 father was also suffering some problems with the -- I 25 understand with his ear, but he lose the balance, and as a DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 518 1 mechanic he was -- he had to make the decision to not continue 2 working for a little while because the doctor prescribe him 3 that, but he did not receive any kind of compensation, then he 4 asked me and my older -- two older brothers that trying to 5 help the family, financially support the family. 6 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the events on 7 September 5th, 1980, do you remember how old you were on that 8 date, September 25th, 1980. 9 A. I was already 27-year old. 10 Q. Okay. And what did you do that afternoon? 11 A. After I finish my job -- then we have different 12 schedule, we were working from 8:00 to 4:00, and because the 13 university was closed, I had more time for me and for my 14 family, I decided to attend the birthday of one of my 15 classmates, and then I decided to go to a place that was 16 called Todos where -- I think that's where the -- Metro Centro 17 was the name of the mall, it is in the north part of San 18 Salvador, it was out to downtown, I work in downtown San 19 Salvador, and I had to take the bus to the other side to go to 20 that mall and to get something for -- for this child. I -- 21 Q. When you say mall, what do you mean? 22 A. Well, because this was like a six or eight different 23 stores there altogether. It was the first place of that kind 24 at that time in the suburbs. 25 Q. Was it all open air? DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 519 1 A. Yes, it was. 2 Q. And then about what time of day was this? 3 A. It could be before 5:00 because it was after I finish 4 with my job and I take the bus and go to the other side of the 5 city. 6 Q. Were you by yourself? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what did you do when you got to the mall? 9 A. Well, I was walking, doing window, but almost 10 immediately, I had a pain. The doctor said beside -- before 11 that it was something related with gastritis, but I carry 12 pain, and then I need to take antacid, something, I decided to 13 stop at the cafeteria at the mall and ask for a cup of tea, 14 hot tea and sit there and wait. Meanwhile I was there, I went 15 to the bathroom of the cafeteria. I remember I went to the 16 last bathroom, toilet there because the other door was closed 17 meaning somebody was there. 18 Q. And what happened in the bathroom? 19 A. Well, when I was already at the sink trying to comb my 20 hair, because I always have long hair, have longer than this, 21 then I heard a sound. 22 Q. And what was the sound like? 23 A. It sounded like something is blow. Well, you can hear 24 boom. And if you were in those days in El Salvador, it was 25 that it was something common to happen anywhere, you can hear DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 520 1 that kind of noise, you say, oh, there is something. But you 2 cannot -- I can't -- even though it happened, I cannot say 3 exactly where. The difference with this, the sound of a tire 4 when it blow up or something else. 5 Q. Did the sound -- did it seem like it was inside the 6 bathroom or outside the bathroom? 7 A. Really, I'm trying to remember. Since that day until 8 now, I cannot say exactly, just up, up something, up there. 9 Q. And then what happened? 10 A. Almost immediately, one man push the door, and the 11 other one in back of him. And the first one said what 12 happened here, are you planning to put the bomb, and I saw him 13 and I was, no, no, I don't. And just the other one that was 14 in the back of him said she is planning to do it. Almost 15 immediately when they open the door, people outside was also 16 around the door. 17 Q. What people are you referring to? 18 A. I mean the people that were -- the shoppers that were 19 around. 20 Q. Were the men dressed in any particular way? 21 A. Yes, he had the uniform the people use in that mall. 22 It was -- I think they use blue like pant and light blue 23 shirt. 24 Q. What people are you referring to? 25 A. The security guards of the mall. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 521 1 Q. And did you notice whether they were carrying any 2 weapons? 3 A. No, I don't remember. 4 Q. Okay. Then what happened? 5 A. And then they almost immediately says, you know, come 6 with us because we have to take you to the administrative 7 office. The people around this said this is crazy, they act 8 crazy, it is nothing. That happens somewhere else, not the 9 sounds. But they took me to the ground level. This was the 10 administrative office of that mall. 11 Q. Did you know anything about a bomb? Did you have any 12 information about a bomb in the mall? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who else was present when they took you down to the 15 offices in the mall? 16 A. In that office, it was a man, the back side of a big 17 desk, and the two men that took me, one of those two men told 18 him we bring this woman here because we had the suspicious 19 that she is planning to put a bomb in the mall. And then the 20 guy there say uh-huh, okay, let me hold. He went to the 21 corner of the room and take the telephone, and he did a call. 22 I don't know who he called. He was not close to me. 23 Q. And what happened next? 24 A. And then he talk to the other two men to leave me there 25 in his room because he is going to take care of me. Then one DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 522 1 of the guys put something in the desk and say I leave this 2 with you, this belong to her. 3 Q. And what was that, could you tell? 4 A. It was a box of cigarettes, the package. 5 Q. Did you smoke? 6 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. And he left that there. The other one said okay. We 9 wait there, I cannot tell you exactly how long, because since 10 the moment the guy say you are this and because you are trying 11 to do something subversive, I could feel more than scared, you 12 know, I didn't know at that point what is going to happen to 13 me. 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. The man there was telling some kind of thing like, 16 okay, lady, who paid you to do that, what do you really do, 17 what are you doing here. Meanwhile, we were waiting for 18 somebody. 19 Q. So then what happened, who arrived? 20 A. And a minute after that, two men came. 21 Q. And how were they dressed? 22 A. With those civilian clothes. None of them has any kind 23 of uniform, and one of them say we came from the corporation. 24 Oh, that's right, say this is that lady and took this, that's 25 the guards gave me. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 523 1 Q. And then what did they do with it? 2 A. And immediately we left the office and went to the 3 street, and those men stop a taxi cab, and we went into the 4 taxi. 5 Q. How were you seated inside the taxi cab? 6 A. There are three guys, two men and myself sit in the 7 back of the taxi cab. I was in the middle and one was here 8 and the other to the other side. 9 Q. And where did you drive? 10 A. They drive to a narrow in that road close to there, and 11 one of the men on this side, I think he ask me how many 12 brothers and sisters do you have. I say I have 10. Oh, 13 nobody will miss you, it's one less. 14 Q. And what were you feeling at that point? 15 A. And we went down that road, and I only could think this 16 is the end, and I could see that face of the guy of the taxi 17 driver, he put his face down and saw me with a lot of sadness. 18 I don't know what kind of face I had at that moment, but he 19 saw me in that way. And this guy was watching the shoulder, 20 and then at one point, this guy make a sign to the taxi driver 21 to continue, because at one point he was saying we can take 22 you out, you can -- we can leave your body here or anywhere. 23 After that, we continued down the road and we went to the 24 downtown San Salvador, and we were at the corner of the 25 national police headquarters. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 524 1 Q. How did you know it was the national police 2 headquarters? 3 A. I had to pass by there by bus everyday. Every day my 4 bus going to my home had to go through that way where it was 5 the national police, it is big and it has the name -- the name 6 of that. 7 MS. BLUM: Excuse me, Your Honor, this is kind 8 of a natural stopping point before we get into this phase. 9 THE COURT: That's a good idea. I think that's 10 a good idea. We probably could use a longer break for 11 lunch. The lawyers are working and the staff, so we're 12 going to take a break until 2:00. It does wear out 13 everybody, particularly our staff, we need to give them a 14 little rest. We ask you to come back at 2:00. You have a 15 fairly long break. Don't let anybody talk with you. We 16 will see everybody at 2:00 this afternoon, and we will 17 stay a little late again like we did yesterday. 18 THE CLERK: All rise. This honorable court 19 stands in recess until 2:00 o'clock. 20 (Recess taken at 12:25 until 2:00 p.m.) 21 THE COURT: Do we have everybody? 22 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: Yes, sir, we're ready 23 to go. 24 THE COURT: Are you ready to proceed? All 25 right. We can bring the panel in. DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 525 1 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: Yes, Your Honor. 2 (Jury in at 2:00 p.m.) 3 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated and 4 counsel may proceed. 5 BY MS. BLUM: 6 Q. Ms. Santos, at the time we took the break for lunch, 7 you had told the jury that you had just arrived at the 8 national police headquarters, is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you had been driven there in a taxi with two plain 11 clothes gentlemen, is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When you arrived -- how were you feeling at that point 14 when you pulled up to the national police headquarters? 15 A. I was scared, and also I feel anguish because I didn't 16 know what is going to happen then. 17 Q. What did happen when you arrived at the national police 18 headquarters? 19 A. One of the men left from the car, I don't know where. 20 And only one man took me to the car to the main entrance of 21 national police headquarters. 22 Q. So you walked into the national police headquarters 23 with one of the men, is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when you got inside the building, what did you see? DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 526 1 A. When we went there, it was a soldier standing up at the 2 door, and back him was front desk with another man with 3 uniform. 4 Q. What type of -- excuse me, what type of uniform was 5 that gentleman wearing? 6 A. A green one that the soldier use, it is green, and the 7 man that was with me told to the man at the desk that he 8 brought me there because the other person thought that I was 9 planning to put a bomb, that's what he says. And the guy at 10 the desk says it doesn't look like. That's what I was told 11 says the other man. Says I don't need to take her, and for a 12 little while, he was thinking and says go to the second floor. 13 Q. So the man who was behind the desk in the uniform 14 directed the man who brought you into the national police 15 headquarters to take you up to the second floor, is that 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And where were you taken on the second floor of the 19 national police headquarters? 20 A. Okay. We went to the second floor, and it is like half 21 a moon, and we went to this side, to the left side, and we 22 went up the step, went to one office there, the same man with 23 me told to the other one again that I was -- I had to be 24 arrested or I was arrested, something like that, because he 25 kept saying she was planning to put a bomb, and the other guy DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 527 1 saying no, you are crazy, no, I don't. And then he says, oh, 2 maybe you can take her to the Caines. 3 Q. So after you came up to the stairs on to the second 4 floor of the national police headquarters, you stopped in an 5 office, and then you were directed to an office called Caines, 6 is that correct? 7 A. Yes, that's the word, I think it is spelling like 8 C-A-I-N-E-S. 9 Q. Did you know what that meant at that point? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Did you have any idea what that meant? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did the man who took you to the -- did the man then 14 take you down to the Caines office? 15 A. We walked around the half moon to the other side, and 16 we went to another office there, and he says sit there outside 17 the office, and he went inside where there was several desks, 18 and you could hear different voices. He went in and went to 19 talk with somebody. 20 Q. When you were walking from one end of the half moon to 21 the other end of the half moon, did you see any other men in 22 the hallway? 23 A. Oh, yes, there were walking many, one with the uniform 24 also, they were green, and the other with the uniform of the 25 national police that was dark brown pants and brown shirt, DIRECT - CECILIA SANTOS 528 1 they were walking around. 2 Q. And at the office that you knew as Caines, how were the 3 men dressed? 4 A. With civil clothes, nobody has uniform there. 5 Q. So you were waiting outside the door of the Caines, is 6 that correct? 7 A. Yes, in a chair. I was sitting in a chair. 8 Q. And during that time that you were waiting, what were 9 you feeling? 10 A. I can say the same, so anguish, and it was growing like 11 panic, that feeling that -- because all of them, the men there 12 didn't have uniform, and the guy that came to me left and said 13 they will take care of you. 14 Q. So you were left at this Caines office at that point? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where we