U N R E D A C T E D 1379 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE WESTERN DIVISION ------------------------------------------------------- ANA PATRICIA CHAVEZ, CECILIA ) SANTOS, JOSE FRANCISCO ) CALDERON, ERLINDA FRANCO, AND ) DANIEL ALVARADO ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) NO. 03-2932-Ml/P ) ) ) NICOLAS CARRANZA, ) ) Defendant. ) ------------------------------------------------------- TRIAL PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE HONORABLE JON PHIPPS MCCALLA, JUDGE NOVEMBER 10, 2005 VOLUME IX BRENDA PARKER OFFICIAL REPORTER SUITE 942 FEDERAL BUILDING 167 NORTH MAIN STREET MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE 38103 1380 A P P E A R A N C E S Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs: BASS BERRY & SIMS PLC 315 DEADERICK STREET, SUITE 2700 NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37238-3001 By: DAVID R. ESQUIVEL, ESQ. CAROLYN PATTY BLUM, ESQ. CENTER FOR JUSTICE & ACCOUNTABILITY 291 WEST 12TH STREET NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10014 MATTHEW J. EISENBRANDT, ESQ. CENTER FOR JUSTICE & ACCOUNTABILITY 870 MARKET STREET, SUITE 684 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94102 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant: FARGARSON & BROOKE 65 UNION AVENUE 9TH FLOOR MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE 38103 By: ROBERT M. FARGARSON, ESQ. BRUCE BROOKE, ESQ. 1381 W I T N E S S I N D E X WITNESS PAGE LINE NICOLAS CARRANZA DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FARGARSON: ..................... 1384 6 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ESQUIVEL: ...................... 1473 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BROOKE: ........................ 1545 10 1382 E X H I B I T I N D E X EXHIBIT NUMBER PAGE LINE Exhibit Number 50 Telegram 1436 20 Exhibit Number 51 Photograph 1498 23 Exhibit Number 52 Article 1532 6 Exhibit Number 53 Photograph 1532 8 1383 1 THURSDAY MORNING AND AFTERNOON 2 NOVEMBER 10, 2005 3 The jury trial in this case resumed on this 4 date, Thursday, November 10, 2005, at 9:15 o'clock a.m., 5 when and where evidence was introduced and proceedings 6 were had as follows: 7 8 ____________ 9 10 THE COURT: All right. Do we have all of our 11 panel? 12 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: Yes, sir. I think we 13 are almost ready. 14 THE INTERPRETER: Good morning. 15 THE COURT: All right. I think we have 16 everybody. We can have the witness come back around and 17 we will proceed and bring the jury in. All right. We can 18 bring the jury in. 19 (Jury in at 9:15 a.m.) 20 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated, and 21 counsel may proceed. 22 MR. FARGARSON: Thank you, Your Honor. 23 24 25 DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1384 1 NICOLAS CARRANZA, 2 was thereupon called as a witness on behalf of the 3 Defendant, and having been previously duly sworn, was 4 examined and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) 6 BY MR. FARGARSON: 7 Q. Mr. Carranza, I think yesterday when we adjourned, we 8 were at the point where you enrolled in military school. 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And so we will start there. When was that? 11 A. It was in San Salvador, it's a military school, which 12 is an institution similar to the West Point of the United 13 States. I entered there in 1954. 14 Q. And how long is the course that you take in military 15 school? 16 A. At that time, the course lasted four years. 17 Q. And is it required that if you're going to be an 18 officer, you go to that school? 19 A. Well, there were two ways to become an officer of the 20 army in El Salvador. One was through the military school, and 21 the other was through the rank, coming from soldier going up 22 the ladder, up to general. 23 Q. So what do you take in military school? Does it have 24 matters of education other than simply military affairs, 25 military matters? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1385 1 A. Yes, sir. We have many, many subjects. Mainly, we 2 have English, we have mathematics, we have language, Spanish. 3 That's some of the -- cosmography, for example, something like 4 that. 5 Q. Okay. Are those courses in the first year or are they 6 throughout the education in the school? 7 A. At that time there were three in the first three years, 8 because it was a complement of the basic plan, which is what 9 is similar to a high school degree. A high school degree at 10 that time have three years of what they call basic plan, and 11 three years of bachillerato at that time. So we have in the 12 first three years, the common civil subjects, and the last two 13 years, we have matters related only to the military career. 14 Q. And did I understand you correctly that the first three 15 years have subjects similar to what you had had in high 16 school? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And so you had already had some of the subjects that 19 were taught in military school? 20 A. Yes, sir. When I entered the military school, I was 21 already graduated from high school, so I had like an advantage 22 over some of my classmates. 23 Q. All right. And then the military education that you 24 obtained in military school, what would that consist of, what 25 would those courses or the core education courses consist of? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1386 1 A. Well, the -- we have the -- some matters related to the 2 orientation like a study of maps. We had tactics, we have 3 logistics, we have something about anti-guerrilla operations, 4 besides physical training, which was very hard. 5 Q. Well, were the teachers and instructors you had all 6 from El Salvador or did you have teachers or instructors from 7 other nations? 8 A. Sometimes we had a couple of officers from the United 9 States, one gave matters of engineers. He was a member of the 10 Engineers Corps of the United States. Another gave us 11 something about explosives also. Otherwise, they were 12 military -- members of the army. 13 Q. Do you have to take tests during the course of the 14 education? 15 A. Yes, sir. You have to study like in any high school. 16 We were having every month, every three months, we have 17 several tests, and then at the end of the year, there was one 18 last test that had included everything in the year. 19 Q. What year did you graduate? 20 A. In 1957. 21 Q. And how many people graduated in your class? 22 A. In my class, we were 14, 14 officers. 23 Q. Do they rank you or do they list you as the graduating 24 class by number of academic achievement or anything like that? 25 A. Well, myself? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1387 1 Q. Well, everybody. Do they rank everybody or only a few? 2 A. We -- all of us -- all of the 14. 3 Q. Well, what was your rank in graduating from military 4 school? 5 A. I was the first in class. 6 Q. Okay. When you graduate from military school, what 7 happens then? 8 A. I was assigned to a unit in San Salvador. 9 Q. And what year did you graduate from military school? 10 A. In 1957 on November the 15th. 11 Q. And then the assignment that you say that you received, 12 what was the assignment, what were you to do? 13 A. At that time, I was section commander of a mortar unit. 14 Q. And where was that unit located? 15 A. In the first infantry regiment, they called that at 16 that time in San Salvador. 17 Q. And that would be then in the urban area of San 18 Salvador? 19 A. Yes, it was in one of the edges of the city at that 20 time. Now, it is surrounded by a lot of buildings. 21 Q. And what did you have to do in that unit? 22 A. I had to train the soldiers mostly in very elementary 23 kind of training because even -- we had to teach them how to 24 read and write. Most of the people were from the field, from 25 the country, and we had to begin teaching them many elementary DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1388 1 things, how to dress well, how to eat, how to clean their 2 teeth, something like that, elementary, plus physical exercise 3 and to learn how to shoot, how to march, elementary things. 4 Q. Okay. And how long did you have that position? 5 A. It was only one month and a half because over there, 6 there was a vacancy at the artillery regiment, and the first 7 of the class graduate with us, second lieutenant, was assigned 8 to the artillery regiment always. I was not assigned at that 9 time because there was no vacancy in the artillery regiment, 10 so they assign me in the infantry regiment for awhile. 11 Q. Was there any special reason why that was a rule that 12 the first in the graduating class would go to artillery 13 school? 14 A. No, sir. I don't think it was any -- just a custom 15 that they used to do, as a stimulus for the officer who had 16 the first honor role in graduations. 17 Q. And I may have said artillery school, I should have 18 just said the artillery unit, is that what it was? 19 A. Yes, sir, the artillery regiment we called it at that 20 time. 21 Q. And what did you do there? 22 A. I was at the office of the command unit. I had to do 23 something like working as a liaison making some municipality 24 job for the artillery regiment and work as a headquarters -- I 25 mean some kind of aid to the commander. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1389 1 Q. Let me back up a moment and go back to military school. 2 When you're in military school, are you taught anything about 3 the chain of command, the duty of commanders, the duty of 4 subordinates, the duty of military personnel? 5 A. Yes, sir, that's basic for the knowledge of the 6 military rules in the army, so we had to be trained in that. 7 We had what they call the Ordenanza del Ejercito, which is the 8 document that rules the procedures and some beginning theory 9 of the military career. 10 Q. Are you taught anything about a code of military 11 justice to the conduct of the military? 12 A. In the last period of the unit, between third and 13 fourth year, we were training, we were taught something about 14 the military laws, some of that included the code of military 15 justice. 16 Q. And what about the area of either human rights and how 17 you handle the treatment of noncombatants or combatants in 18 civil wars or civil disturbances or anything of that nature, 19 was there any instruction in those regards? 20 A. Yes, sir, there was some training in some knowledge 21 about the Geneva Conventions, and some of them at that time 22 were not -- El Salvador had not been signed yet. Later, El 23 Salvador signed some of the last Geneva Conventions. 24 Q. Okay. And so now, let's go back where we were at the 25 artillery brigade or the artillery unit. How long were you in DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1390 1 that artillery unit? 2 A. In the artillery brigade, since 1958 until 19 -- 3 1961 -- until 1960. 4 Q. During the course of being in that brigade, what did 5 you learn, if anything, or what were you taught? 6 A. In the artillery regiment, we had a school, school of 7 artillery, we learn the basic how to point weapons, how to 8 make the direction of the shots, how to measure the distances, 9 how to know about the different ammunition, things about 10 ammunition, the use; and, of course, in the time that I was 11 taking this course, I was trained by a colonel from the United 12 States was a military man, he recommended me to go to the 13 country of the United States on a scholarship to Fort Sill 14 Military -- U. S. Military Fort -- the school of artillery in 15 Lawton, Oklahoma, Fort Sill. 16 Q. Now, what was your rank when you were at the artillery 17 brigade. 18 A. What was my -- 19 Q. What was your rank? 20 A. I was second lieutenant at that time. 21 Q. Is that the same rank that you received when you 22 graduated from military college or -- 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. -- school? 25 A. That's the rank I obtained at military school. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1391 1 Q. So the scholarship you got to come to the United States 2 and go to school in Lawton, Oklahoma, approximately when was 3 that? 4 A. It was more or less in August of 1958. 5 Q. And -- 6 A. I came first to Washington, D. C. to learn a little 7 more English, and then I went to the end of 1958, I went to 8 Fort Sill, I stayed until January 1959. 9 Q. And you say you got a scholarship, what does that mean? 10 A. It is an opportunity that the United States give to the 11 officers of the -- of many countries in Latin America, and 12 they were a crusade in order to train the people in their kind 13 of weapons that the United States serve. 14 Q. Were you able to bring your family with you? 15 A. I was -- when I was in Washington, I had a -- my -- and 16 the woman I liked, and I was in love so much that when I went 17 in Washington, I married her by power, I don't know how you 18 call it, but I marry her in El Salvador, and she came to the 19 United States, and here we married by the church in 20 Washington, D. C., and then we went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. 21 Q. Well, I'm not sure I understood all that, but do I 22 understand that you were married when you went to artillery 23 school? 24 A. Not at the beginning, sir. We are not allowed to marry 25 when we are cadets, so I married her in -- when I was here DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1392 1 studying English in Washington D. C. and then I took her here. 2 Over there, I married by the law, and here in the United 3 States, I married by the religion. 4 Q. Was learning English a part of the scholarship that you 5 received to come to artillery school? 6 A. Well, yes, it certainly was part of the scholarship, 7 but it is not usual to do that. The fact is I was not 8 completely, and I'm not yet completely fluent in English, so I 9 had to come to Washington, D. C. in order to improve my 10 English. 11 Q. At the artillery school in Oklahoma, what type of 12 artillery tactics or training did you receive? 13 A. That was the -- it was -- the name was field artillery, 14 and that means field artillery battery officers scope, because 15 it was not only dedicated to each artillery, but some of the 16 things of the -- mostly the tactics of some of the units, and 17 the way that the artillery men could call the names of the 18 other units that comes under the fire in order to comply with 19 the missions. 20 Q. And so when you completed your scholarship at the 21 artillery school of the United States, were you still a second 22 lieutenant or had you received any promotions or advances in 23 military rank? 24 A. That, of course, was a requirement to become first 25 lieutenant, so when I came here, I was in time, so I was DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1393 1 promoted to second lieutenant -- to first lieutenant in 1961. 2 Q. When you completed your training at the artillery 3 school in the United States, what assignment or what duty did 4 you have? 5 A. I was assigned in the artillery brigade regiment at 6 that time. I may say the artillery brigade regiment because 7 it was named regiment, but later and more accordingly, the 8 terminology in the military way, it was named brigade, which 9 maybe was a little larger and more efficient unit. We had 10 the -- I was assigned the battery, the third battery which 11 used a kind of mortar, kind of mortar artillery, 75 caliber. 12 Q. And where was that unit stationed? 13 A. In the regiment -- artillery regiment in San Salvador. 14 Q. Okay. When did you get another assignment different 15 from the artillery brigade or the artillery unit? 16 A. My next change was to the military school. I went over 17 there as an instructor this time, 1961. 18 Q. Another military school or was it -- was it a different 19 military school? 20 A. No, sir, the same where I was, I became a second 21 lieutenant, I was assigned as teacher at that time. 22 Q. Okay. And as a teacher at the military school, what 23 was your area of instructions or the courses that you taught? 24 A. I had to train my cadets in the physical training, in 25 some of the elementary way they have to do in the school, DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1394 1 teaching ordinance, the ordinance of the army. I mean 2 ordinance in the center -- I don't know really the expression 3 because ordinance could be in the military, in English, it is 4 a different thing than the ordinance in Spanish. The 5 Ordenanza del Ejecercito is a document that give the -- how 6 the military men ruled themselves, how the functioning of 7 the -- the basis elementary things among the military people. 8 Also, I had to lectura de mapas, map lecture in order 9 to find a way to orient themselves to know how to measure the 10 distances using coordinates, maps, and to have the possibility 11 to direct the fire in that case or to make patrolling, the way 12 to offer one side to the other using a compass, something like 13 that. 14 Q. Well, were these courses the same courses that were 15 taught to cadets when you went to military school? 16 A. Yes, sir, the same, the same. 17 Q. All right. Now, how long did you do that? 18 A. I was over there three years. In 1963, I was assigned 19 to the calvary regiment. The calvary regiment at this time, I 20 had the time enough to be promoted to captain. It was getting 21 close, so I had to make a course, to take a course, because 22 the promotion calls for captains. We didn't have employment 23 in the students in the school of arms where I went. They 24 assign me to the calvary regiment in order to have a salary, 25 but I was not working there, I had to go to the school. The DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1395 1 school of arms and services, arms and services because they 2 teach not only the tactical things, but the services that the 3 unit have to give in an army in supporting the troops. 4 Q. So where was the calvary unit that you went to, where 5 was it located? 6 A. The calvary regiment was located some places around 30 7 kilometers from San Salvador in a place near -- in the valley, 8 valley of San Andres, at the west part of San Salvador -- of 9 El Salvador. 10 Q. Are the calvary units -- let me take that back, were 11 the calvary units in El Salvador at that time motorized or did 12 the calvary units actually use horses because of the terrain 13 in El Salvador? 14 A. No, at that time, we didn't have any armor equipment, 15 we had only calvary, I mean horses. 16 Q. And so how long were you in that calvary unit? 17 A. 1963, 30 years. 18 Q. Excuse me? 19 A. I was 30 years old. 20 Q. Well, and you stated that you did it until when? 21 A. Over there, I stayed until July, 1964. I was at that 22 time, I was assigned to the school of arms and services. At 23 this time I was not a student, but I was a teacher. 24 Q. Now, where is the schools of arms and services located? 25 A. The school of arms and services at that time was next DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1396 1 to the third infantry regiment, where I had been the first 2 time when I left the school, military school. 3 Q. And that's in San Salvador? 4 A. Yes, sir, next to the 13th regiment. 5 Q. And what were you teaching as a professor at that 6 school? 7 A. I had -- at that time, I had many, many of the classes, 8 would be extensions of the lecture of map reading, tactics, 9 something about logistics, functions of a personality meaning 10 labor. 11 Q. And when you say tactics, what tactics were taught at 12 the school of arms and services? 13 A. Tactics is a -- is a system that the units do in order 14 to achieve a mission assigned by the commander. It could 15 be -- include calculation of a kind of gun you use, how to 16 support the movement, how many troops could be used, what kind 17 of operation, the means of support and the need to accomplish 18 the mission, gasoline, transportation and so forth. 19 Q. Are officers only taught in that school or are other 20 people taught? 21 A. I'm not sure, but I think there was some lawyers that 22 were given some training about the military laws, procedures, 23 I mean the civil procedures and the applications of the law. 24 Q. Well, that was probably a poor question I asked, let me 25 ask it another way. The military people that were taught at DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1397 1 the school of arms and services, were they all officers or 2 were there military personnel that were not officers, they 3 were ordinary soldiers or troops? 4 A. No, sir, that school was for -- you mean the students 5 or the teachers? 6 Q. Yes, the students, yes, sir. 7 A. Yes. Well, that was only for officers. 8 Q. Okay. And you did that for how long and up until what 9 period of time? 10 A. I was a teacher until 1969. In '69, I had now again 11 the time to be promoted to the next step to be major, and I 12 went to the school of command and general staff. 13 Q. Let me ask you something about the school of arms and 14 services. How many instructors would be at that school? 15 A. Could be about 10, 15, I'm not sure, sir. 16 Q. Teaching different -- 17 A. Teaching different level, different subjects, because 18 there were several courses. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned you were promoted to major, is there 20 a period of time that you have to be in service to be 21 promoted? 22 A. Yes, at that time, there was a relation that gave time 23 to be in every rank in order to practice and be able to go to 24 the next step, to the next rank. 25 Q. Would it be an automatic type promotion? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1398 1 A. No, sir, that's why we had the courses to make them 2 able to capacitate them so they could develop the duties they 3 have to fill the next rank. 4 Q. All right. Now, where did you go to school when you 5 were promoted to major or after you were promoted to major? 6 A. I went to school beginning in 1969. At that time, you 7 had a problem by border with Honduras, and we had to go to 8 work in June. We fought what they call war of 100 hours, 9 because at the time it lasted until the United States stopped 10 the problem. After finishing the war, we came back to the 11 school, and I found that it was a possibility to obtain a 12 scholarship to go to Mexico to the Escuela Superior De Guerra, 13 superior war school in a scholarship. And I was having the 14 first place at that time, and they selected me to go to Mexico 15 in that scholarship. 16 Q. You mentioned a war disagreement with Honduras, how 17 long did that last? 18 A. It lasted only 100 hours. We had some -- there was 19 a -- the work begun -- lasted only 100 hours, and we were 20 stuck by, like I say, the United States' decision -- I mean 21 the United Nations' decision. 22 Q. Was there combat between the two countries? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Were you involved in any of the conflict? 25 A. Sir, as I was studying in the school of command of DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1399 1 general staff, I did not go with the unit because I didn't 2 have any assigned unit, but we -- the army brought some 3 reserve men. We went to several units, they getting ready to 4 go to the war and support the rest of the army. However, when 5 we were training these people, the war had already finished. 6 So we did some -- still some kind of missions before going 7 back to the school of command and general staff. 8 Q. All right, sir. Thank you. And now you said that you 9 went to another school for more training in Mexico? 10 A. Yes, sir, that's when I went to Mexico to the Escuela 11 Superior De Guerra, which is the correspondent of the school 12 of command and general staff that we have in El Salvador. 13 Q. So how do you get to go to a school like that, are you 14 selected, do you have to get a scholarship or what is the 15 procedure? 16 A. I was selected because I had -- occupying the first 17 place in the course. 18 Q. You mean in -- 19 A. In the course of command and general staff that we were 20 taking at the Centro De Estudios Militares. 21 Q. All right. So how long did you go to school in Mexico? 22 A. The school over there last three years, and most of 23 these kind of schools last three years, except in the United 24 States, it's only one year. But in Mexico, it have three 25 because it's a more complete school. Not only see the matters DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1400 1 related to the command and general staff, but also we had to 2 know the different arms -- branches of the army, we had to 3 know about the calvary, air force, navy, about engineers, 4 telecommunications in order to organize every complete set so 5 we could know not only the missions of the general staff, but 6 also the coordination with the different units of an army. 7 That's why it last three years instead of two. 8 Q. The instructors in Mexico, are those instructors all 9 connected with the Mexican military or are there instructors 10 from other nations or other countries? 11 A. All of them were Mexican officers or chiefs. The only 12 one exception was a colonel from the youth army who was 13 teaching English over there. 14 Q. And the students or the participants in the courses 15 that you just identified, would they be from countries other 16 than El Salvador or different countries? 17 A. Yes, sir, in that time, we had some people from 18 Guatemala, Honduras and from El Salvador. 19 Q. And so is it mainly a school for Latin American 20 countries, Latin American nation? 21 A. Mostly for Mexicans, but they use sometimes some kind 22 of exception and they gave scholarship to certain counties 23 that have a good relationship with Mexico. 24 Q. Now, what is the next position or next responsibility 25 that you had when you finished school as a student in Mexico? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1401 1 A. I came back to El Salvador, and I was assigned to the 2 Escuela De Comando Y Estado Mayor, to the school of general -- 3 commander and general staff in order to become teacher. 4 Q. Well, now, explain that when you say in order to become 5 a teacher, I thought you had already been teaching. 6 A. Yes, sir, but I was -- the teaching over there didn't 7 require more than knowledge of the matter that we're going to 8 teach. In the case of the commander and general staff school, 9 it chose a higher level of the army, we had to take some 10 instruction, some training in order to land better means, 11 better procedures to teaching. I selected the subject of 12 tactics and operations, and I received training in -- at the 13 side of one of the older teachers, and later I became myself 14 teacher, military teacher of Escuela De Comando Y Estado 15 Mayor. 16 Q. How long did you teach at that -- how long did you 17 teach at either a school or those subjects that you were 18 learning about? 19 A. Until 1977. 20 Q. Now, did you receive any promotions during the course 21 of study in Mexico or during this period of time? 22 A. Once you -- once you get the diploma, the commander and 23 general school, you are able -- capable and able and willing 24 and able to be promoted according with the time. There's no 25 more courses to do. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1402 1 Q. Okay. Well, were you promoted at any time during that 2 period of time while you were in the school training to teach? 3 A. I was a major when I went to Mexico, and when I came 4 back, since I had graduated already from the school of -- 5 superior war school in Mexico, I got promoted to lieutenant 6 colonel. 7 Q. Well, and then did you teach subjects at the school, 8 after you got through with training? 9 A. No, sir, that was the maximum rank, I mean training 10 that we could get in El Salvador to finish the -- to graduate 11 from the school of command and general staff. 12 Q. Well, what I mean is did you teach those subjects or 13 did you only learn those subjects? 14 A. No, sir, there was so many classes over there that we 15 had to be trained incompletely, to be continued. In the 16 military career, there are many changes, many changes in 17 weapons, many changes in procedures, so we had to be trained, 18 continue training, always learning something, always reading, 19 always learning. 20 Q. Well, when did you get another assignment after being 21 at that military school? 22 A. It was in 1997 -- 1977. At that time, there was the 23 assumption powered by General Romero. He was one time before 24 the -- he took power, he went to opening of the first air 25 station for communication that we had in El Salvador. In that DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1403 1 time, the opening, he told me -- he asked me if I would like 2 to go to work in ANTEL as a general manager. ANTEL is a 3 telecommunications company of El Salvador. It is the same 4 thing like BellSouth in the United States under the duty of 5 telecommunication, telephone, teletype and also have the 6 mission, the responsibility to deal with the assignment of the 7 air waves to the air station, to the radio station, to the TV 8 in order to regulate the thing, that there is not interference 9 with the transmission of one company with the transmission of 10 others, and also regulate the different waves, lengths to 11 the -- all the kind of radio transmissions. 12 Q. Well, up until that time when you were asked to go to 13 ANTEL -- 14 A. He took power July 1st, that was the time of the 15 transmission of power in El Salvador and at that date, he name 16 me the general manager of ANTEL. 17 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask a couple of things. Up until 18 that time when you went to ANTEL, how many years was it or 19 when was it that you were not in school? 20 A. Well, there was only the first when I graduated, I went 21 first infantry unit, I was then to artillery, and I was over 22 there a couple of years of which I was in training half, so I 23 was half in school. Well, let's say two years. After that, I 24 went to calvary regiment when I was only -- working over there 25 maybe a couple of months, and then because I was in school DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1404 1 getting -- trying to be -- studying to be promoted to captain, 2 and up to now, up to the manager of ANTEL. The next -- 3 Q. Excuse me, go ahead. 4 A. After ANTEL, I was designated by the general order, it 5 was in September the 3rd, I was assigned to the part east of 6 El Salvador in the department of La Union, which is near the 7 Gulf of Fonseca, which is divide -- separate us from 8 Nicaragua. 9 Q. Okay. But what I really was asking is how many years 10 or how long were you not in school during all that period of 11 time from starting in school in 1954 to going to ANTEL in 12 1977? 13 A. In reality, it would only be two years, two years. It 14 would take off the moment that I was in school. 15 Q. Okay. And then when you went to -- well, let me back 16 up a minute on what you said about Romero, you said he took 17 power? 18 A. He took power, yes, and he was elected in the elections 19 that year. 20 Q. Okay. And when he was elected, what did that make him? 21 In other words, what position did he then occupy, was it 22 president or what? 23 A. He became president of El Salvador. 24 Q. And that was in 1977? 25 A. July 1st, 1977. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1405 1 Q. Now, up until that time, had there been any coups where 2 someone had tried to take power? 3 A. Well, there had been a couple of times where there had 4 been coups in El Salvador. The coups began and had been 5 organized by the communists. The first one was Farabundo 6 Marti. Marti -- Farabundo Marti was the first communist 7 organized coup in El Salvador, but it was not appropriately a 8 coup, but an assault in the properties of landowners in the 9 west part of the country. He was part of the coming term, and 10 he began with a lot of capesinos who he had trained and 11 indoctrinated to kill the owners of the property that were 12 working. In reaction to this, the president at that time 13 ordered the army to stop that, and they were having a 14 confrontation between the capesinos and the army at that time 15 that some people say La Matanza. They say that there were -- 16 some people say 10,000 men -- 10,000 people killed by the 17 army. Other people relate that to 30,000, but it is the first 18 time that everything looks -- aim to the army. The army 19 killed 10,000 people, but it was they never count the people 20 that are killed by the communists. 21 Q. Well, what year was that? 22 A. 1931, 1932. 23 Q. All right. 24 A. After that, there was another coup in 1943. The same 25 thing, I could not say communist, but they were leftist DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1406 1 people. In 1943, there was a counter coup in 1944 in which 2 the army replaced how they programmed, and then the army again 3 restored the order in El Salvador. The next coup was in 1960. 4 At this time, I was in San Salvador in the artillery regiment 5 at that time. I took part in that last time because the sir 6 chief who was a friend of mine asked me to stay with them at 7 night and help to support that coup. I accepted, and there 8 was a coup, the president, there was a peaceful coup, it was 9 not only telephone calls, the president accepted to resign, 10 and he went to Costa Rica. He was President Lemus. I was in 11 certain way part of that coup because I accepted it at the 12 last hour. 13 Q. What do you mean you accepted at the last hour to 14 become a part of that coup? 15 A. Because already was everything organized. He just told 16 me to stay with them and support them, and I did it. 17 Q. But I mean when you say -- you said stay with them and 18 support them, where were you to stay? What did you have to 19 do? 20 A. Well, I had to stay with them just in case because 21 we -- I was member of the third company of the small -- how 22 would I say, 75, remember, and this was capable to shoot short 23 distances, what they wanted, that's why they asked. We were 24 three members of that battery. We stayed over there that 25 night just in case. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1407 1 Q. Just in case what? 2 A. Excuse me? 3 Q. Just in case what? 4 A. In case the police or the other units in San Salvador 5 did not support the coup. 6 Q. All right. So you just stayed where you were? 7 A. Yes, sir. And the next day, we -- I didn't know who 8 were part of the coup, but I saw there at the minister of 9 defense, he was leaving the situation, the commander of the 10 artillery brigade, something like that, the second and third 11 shift. 12 Q. All right. And were there any others between that date 13 and when you went to ANTEL? 14 A. A long time. It was in '60, there was a counter coup 15 in 1961, because when the first coup was a success, the 16 president was forced to go to Costa Rica, then became some 17 movement in the demonstrations yelling humancy, United States 18 know something about it, gringo, go home, something like that, 19 we knew there was some people leaning to the left who were 20 organizing this -- supporting this movement. There was a 21 reaction among the other members of the army, other units, and 22 they made a countercoup that restore again the democracy 23 system in El Salvador. And I say something democracy because 24 my democracy is different than the democracy than the leftists 25 say. They say the public -- the democratic Republic of China, DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1408 1 which is the most communist country in the world, democratic 2 country of some of everything was -- every one of those 3 countries, communist countries trying to present their image 4 that they don't have, they put their name democratic in their 5 title as a city. There was a counter coup right then and we 6 had our democratic system again. After that, I was in Mexico 7 when there was a coup in El Salvador, 1972, there was a 8 colonel who made a coup, took the artillery brigade, and he 9 hold the president prisoner, it was General Sanchez Hernandez 10 was prisoner, but the man was not real powerful, the man who 11 took -- who organized the coup, and there was the unit did not 12 support the coup, and then he failed, the president was 13 liberated, and he continue his presidential period. Then the 14 last coup was in October, 1979. In that time, I had been -- 15 remember, I told you about going to La Union, the part that 16 passed over from San Salvador, when I was there, there was a 17 coup, and President Romero was deposed, he left the country 18 and that day, I think, 15, 16 of September -- October, 1979. 19 Q. Well, Mr. Carranza, I had asked you about before you 20 were at ANTEL in 1977 and you have gone by that to 1979, and 21 tell the jury about coups that took place. The question I 22 wanted to ask you is which ones did you participate in other 23 than the one where you said you stayed in your place in 1960. 24 A. I never did it because when I learn from my experience 25 of the coup in 1960, I deducted that people who were DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1409 1 organizing those coups were made for their purposes, for their 2 own benefit, or for the benefit of their inclination to the 3 left, so I decided not to participate in any coup from my life 4 on, and I never did. 5 Q. Now, you stated that Mr. Romero had asked you to go to 6 ANTEL, and how long did you stay at ANTEL? 7 A. I was over there three years, from July 1st, 1977 to 8 September the 3rd, 1979. 9 Q. And then you mentioned or I thought I heard you tell 10 the jury that when that coup happened in 1979, you were 11 somewhere else? 12 A. I was in the La Union, the farthest part from San 13 Salvador to the east near Nicaragua. 14 Q. Did you go there from ANTEL? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Now, you talked a little bit about what you did at 17 ANTEL, what was your position there? 18 A. I was a general manager, and I had to supervise the 19 working, the employees, see that their branches were working 20 fine and that we were trying to build a better net of 21 telecommunications. 22 Q. And what was ANTEL, what work did they do or what did 23 they perform? 24 A. The ANTEL is a telecommunications work similar to 25 BellSouth. They had the system of telegraph, the system of DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1410 1 telephone, teletype. At that time, we already had, like I 2 say, the air station in El Salvador, we were mechanizing at 3 that time the system. Before we had radio, and this time we 4 were using satellite in order to improve the transmission, 5 telephonic transmission radio to everywhere in the world. 6 Q. Well, was it a national company, was it a state company 7 or what was the ownership of the company? 8 A. The ANTEL was a national autonomous company, it was 9 supposed to be functioned by their own direction, but we had 10 to be depending from the minister of the interior. 11 Q. Did the staff of ANTEL, was it exclusively military or 12 was it staffed by civilians? 13 A. No, sir, we were -- mainly thing the president and the 14 general manager were members of the army, and also there was 15 retired man who was chief of the security. 16 Q. Who was the president at the time you were there in 17 1977 and 1979? 18 A. In 1977 was -- the president was Colonel Juan Antonio 19 Martinez Varela. He was retired a long time ago. 20 Q. Now, you stated you left there and went to some remote 21 spot. Who sent you to -- away from ANTEL to this remote spot? 22 A. It was the president decision. As a military man, I 23 accept the missions wherever they are, because that's what the 24 military is supposed to do. Some people ask why I have been 25 demoted. I said no employment in the army everywhere cannot DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1411 1 be a demotion. I accept responsibilities of duties, I will 2 help. He told me that since the Sandinistas were sending 3 weapons from Nicaragua to El Salvador by air and by sea and by 4 land, that was the department that was in the border, in the 5 eastern border, and I had the possibility to try to interfere 6 with the flow of weapons in El Salvador. 7 Q. Well, were you placed in charge of a unit, a brigade, a 8 calvary unit, an artillery brigade, what actually was your 9 assignment there other than just being sent to a remote place? 10 A. The unit there was a -- was a regiment, an attachment, 11 had three units. Only infantry. 12 Q. And how long were you there at that place? 13 A. I was 15 days. 14 Q. How long? 15 A. Fifteen days because then we had the coup on 18 16 October -- on 17th October of 1979. 17 Q. Now, you said we had a coup, who is the we? 18 A. Well, we had a coup in El Salvador, all of the -- there 19 was a coup that had deposed President Romero, it was organized 20 by some members of the army together with some civilians. 21 Q. Did you participate in any way in that event, in that 22 coup? 23 A. No, sir, I was invited to participate, but as I said, 24 at the beginning, a couple of times ago, that I had decide not 25 to participate in that coup. The only thing I did is to talk DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1412 1 to the people who were telling me the things, that I wanted to 2 know who was behind the movement in order to tell them if it 3 was a good line that we were following or was it a wrong line. 4 It looks like it was not so good line. 5 Q. So when that happened, were you off in that remote 6 place that you had been sent to? 7 A. I was over there -- yes, some people went over there a 8 couple of days before the coup. 9 Q. And then Romero was deposed of, as you say, what type 10 of government or what type of ruling body was acting as the 11 government of El Salvador? 12 A. After the coup? 13 Q. After Romero, after he lost control or lost power, 14 however you want to put it, who came into power? 15 A. There was a Junta Revolucionaria de Goblerno. Always 16 after the coup, there is a junta, because they want to 17 demonstrate that they have the support of the civilian 18 population, it is not only a military matter, but also have 19 some support, and that's why we have a junta of about five 20 people, was Colonel Gutierrez, Colonel Majano as members of 21 the army, and Drs. Guillermo Manuel Ungo, Ramon Mayorga 22 Quiros, and Mario Andino. Mario Andio was the representative 23 of the industry. Ramon Mayorga Quiros was the -- I think it 24 was the director of the university -- De Centro American 25 University UCA, and Dr. Ungo was representative of one of the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1413 1 parties -- political parties in El Salvador. 2 Q. All right. Now, after they became or came into power, 3 what position did you receive, if any, or what changes were 4 made in your career? 5 A. As I did not -- since I did not participate in the coup 6 when it happened, I stayed in La Union, and later was -- I had 7 communication with Gutierrez when he was the president, and I 8 told him that we were in support of his movement at that time. 9 Q. Okay. And then my question is what happened. Did you 10 stay in the place where you had been sent by Romero or did you 11 assume some other responsibility? 12 A. Initially, I stayed over there because I did not have 13 part in -- I did not have any part in the coup. However, I 14 was called by Colonel Garcia -- Guillermo Garcia, and he 15 called me to San Salvador, he asked me to become general -- 16 chief of general staff of the army. 17 Q. Did you -- 18 A. After that, it looked like there was some problem 19 getting another person, and he order me to use the -- to have 20 the place of subdirector -- subsecretary of defense under his 21 command. 22 Q. And this Garcia was who, what was his full name? 23 A. Jose Guillermo Garcia. He was the minister. 24 Q. All right. And -- now, this period of time was when? 25 A. 1979, immediately after the coup. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1414 1 Q. Now, as subdirector how long did you serve in that 2 position? 3 A. Subsecretary? 4 Q. Yes, as subsecretary, undersecretary. 5 A. I serve until 1979 -- I mean from 1979 to January the 6 3rd, 1981, only one year and two or three months. 7 Q. All right. Could we pull up that chain of command? 8 Now, Mr. Carranza, the jury has heard a lot about the military 9 chain of command, and a lot of people's perspective, and I 10 want you to tell us your understanding of the chain of command 11 from your perspective, okay? 12 A. Yes, sir. The chain of command is the flow of order 13 from the higher levels to the lower levels of the army, which 14 generates orders and has -- receives information from the 15 lower levels. It is an up and down way, they always flow from 16 the head to the end of those, and the orders, the 17 communications come from the lower to the upper level to the 18 head. 19 Q. Now, is the commander in chief of the armed forces, 20 whoever it might be the head of the chain of command? 21 A. Yes, sir. The -- usually, everywhere in the United 22 States, in El Salvador, Mexico, the president is the commander 23 in chief of the army or the armed forces in a country like the 24 United States. Then the next level, the ministry of defense, 25 which comprise the minister and vice-minister or subsecretary DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1415 1 of defense. Here in the United States, you call secretary of 2 defense and there are several undersecretaries for defense in 3 El Salvador, the size of the army we have minister, and also 4 it could be named secretary of defense, and the subsecretary 5 of defense which is the place I was having that time. Then 6 come the general staff, and through the general staff go to 7 all of the units from that part of the army. 8 Q. The commander in chief of the armed forces at the time 9 we're talking about, is that one person only? 10 A. Excuse me, sir, could you say it again? 11 Q. The commander and chief of the armed forces is not like 12 the commander in chief of armed forces of the United States? 13 A. No, the commander in chief -- yes, the same thing, the 14 commander in chief is the maximal head, the president. 15 Q. But there's not a vice-president in El Salvador, or 16 there wasn't a vice-president at that time like in the United 17 States? 18 A. No, sir, there was no -- at that -- the junta, all of 19 them represented the same level of command, but there was like 20 in the first time, there were two colonels, Gutierrez and 21 Majano. 22 THE COURT: We're going to take a restroom 23 break at this time, it will be 15 minutes, and we will see 24 you in 15 minutes. 25 THE CLERK: All rise. This honorable court DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1416 1 stands in recess for 15 minutes. 2 (Recess taken at 10:28 until 10:50 a.m.) 3 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated. 4 Counsel may proceed. 5 BY MR. FARGARSON: 6 Q. Now, at the time you were under-minister of defense, 7 was there a junta? 8 A. Yes, sir, yes, sir, there was a junta. 9 Q. Were there military men in the junta? 10 A. Yes, the same colonels, Gutierrez and Majano. 11 Q. Were there civilians in the junta? 12 A. Yes, sir, there were civilians in the junta. At this 13 time, there was a change. 14 Q. What was the change? 15 A. In January 2, 1980, there was coming a protest. Some 16 members of subcabinet of the cabinet protested saying that 17 they felt not respected by the members of the army, so they 18 asked the -- there was -- excuse me, there was an organization 19 within the army integrated by young people, young officers who 20 were in part organizers of the coup. It was COPEFA, they 21 answer to the cabinet that the minister of the defense was 22 doing fine and they were supporting him. So they resigned, 23 some of them, and they were substituted by Dr. Dada Diresi, 24 Dr. Morales Ehrlich, and I don't remember who was the other 25 one, but there were three. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1417 1 Q. Okay. I'm not sure I understood exactly what you said. 2 Was there a disagreement among some of the people in the 3 military? 4 A. No. The COPEFA was supporting the minister of defense 5 at that time. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. They answer to the cabinet, they made the response that 8 they were supporting the members of the army. 9 Q. All right. And so when they announced they were 10 supporting, what happened? 11 A. So they -- the members of the cabinet resign and say 12 that either the minister and the vice-minister resign or they 13 will resign themselves. And the COPEFA, Consejo Pemanente De 14 La Fuerza Armada, Permanent Council of the Armed Forces who 15 were the direct battalion officers answer the cabinet, and 16 they said that we're supporting the minister of defense, so 17 they resigned, members of the cabinet and also members of the 18 junta. 19 Q. All right. And what about Majano, what did he do? 20 A. Majano stayed over there also with Colonel Gutierrez, 21 but little after that, there was resigning of Dr. Hector Dada 22 Diresi, and then Napoleon Duarte was integrated to the junta. 23 Q. And when was Napoleon Duarte put on the junta? 24 A. It was around the 10th of January of 1980. And there 25 was some disagreement between Majano and Gutierrez about the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1418 1 power and -- 2 Q. Well, now, wait a minute, I thought I had asked you if 3 there wasn't some disagreement. Weren't both of those 4 military men? 5 A. Yes, Colonel Majano and Colonel Gutierrez was in 6 disagreement because of power. Gutierrez wanted to be the 7 commander in chief, and Majano wanted to be the same. 8 Q. Since the two military men on the junta wanted to be 9 the commander in chief, what happened as a result of that 10 discord or disagreement between those two military men? 11 A. There is a world that they try to become the commander 12 in chief of the armed forces, of the armed force, so they were 13 not -- Majano argued that he was member of the arms, and the 14 army had to -- people who aren't completely military men, and 15 the other who have a degree, civil degree. They could be 16 engineers, they could be lawyers, they could be doctors, so 17 they become members of the services, and they're military men 18 in the company unit are military of the arms. Majano because 19 was member of the army thought that he had the higher priority 20 over Gutierrez, and Gutierrez thought that it was the main 21 organizer of the coup had the right to become the commander in 22 chief. There was some kind of discussions, and there was a 23 meeting of the officer who chose between them who could become 24 the commander in chief of the armed forces. There was a vote, 25 secret vote from all of the units in the army, and as a DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1419 1 result, Colonel Gutierrez won the election and he was made -- 2 designated commander in chief of the armed forces. 3 Q. Well, when this dispute came between two members of the 4 armed forces, each one of them wanted power, what effect, if 5 any, did that have on the function of the military of El 6 Salvador, if any? 7 A. Well, as a matter of fact, as a result of these votes, 8 some units have more preference for Majano, some of the units 9 have more preference for Gutierrez, so there was some kind of 10 like division among them, among the officers of the army. But 11 this was not something could be important. However, looks 12 like the people who were some inclined to the left or what, 13 later. We know -- we knew could have been some problem so we 14 left it for the moment. 15 Q. Okay. So even though there was disagreement against 16 men with power and with authority, was the army able to 17 function -- 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. -- normally? 20 A. Yes, sir, there was no -- there was no different, we 21 continued to work the same. But in that vote, the officers 22 said that they would not obey anyone but Colonel Garcia. 23 Q. Now, who was that that said they wouldn't obey anyone 24 but General Garcia? 25 A. In the meeting, there was expression, I think it was-- DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1420 1 I'm not sure who said it, but there was a declaration that 2 they would not obey any other than Colonel Jose Guillermo 3 Garcia. 4 Q. Well, now, was that when he was minister of defense? 5 A. Yes, and he was minister of defense. 6 Q. Was he your superior? 7 A. Yes, he was my immediate superior. 8 Q. And did you report to him? 9 A. Yes, that was my duty to advise him of different 10 things. 11 Q. And did you do things or act without his consent or 12 permission? 13 A. Absolutely not. As a matter of subordination, as a 14 subordinator, we had to accept, obey what the superior tells 15 us. 16 Q. The -- I need you to pull up Article 27, duties of 17 the -- Article 27. In the chain of command is an interior 18 party or military officer to obey the orders of the superior 19 military officer or position? 20 A. According to the chain of command, they cannot disobey 21 the order, sir. 22 Q. Now, we have all seen this, but I want you to give us 23 your perspective the way this functioned when Garcia was the 24 minister of defense and you were the under-minister of 25 defense, where it says responsibility of the undersecretary of DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1421 1 defense. How did you carry out the responsibility of 2 providing technical advice to Garcia? 3 A. In all matters concerning the branch, the branch of the 4 army, the defense as part of the government has to deal with 5 the defense of the country against any foreign attack or any 6 interior insubordination, also have to give him advice about 7 the measure that they can take in order to put into effect 8 that mission, to defend a country and to defend the population 9 against the enemy, any person who is an enemy. 10 Q. What is -- what does the word technical mean in a 11 military sense? 12 A. Technical is a branch that is not -- that refer to the 13 policies of the government of the defense in support to the 14 government, to the nation, and to protect the people and to 15 save the country. 16 Q. All right. Now, the next paragraph says to coordinate 17 the technical function? 18 A. To coordinate the technical function of the general 19 staff with each of the different branches. The different 20 branches are the air force, the community forces, navy, army, 21 calvary, so forth. Everyone has his own way to act, so they 22 had to tell the general staff, telling what unit they could 23 use in order to perform a specific task. 24 Q. All right. But in carrying out that responsibility to 25 coordinate the technical function of the general staff, how DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1422 1 did you carry out that exact responsibility to coordinate the 2 technical function, what did you do to carry out that 3 responsibility? 4 A. It just a matter of advice about the qualities of every 5 unit to carry out the mission. It is about -- 6 Q. What would be needed to carry it out? 7 A. What would be needed to carry out the operations. 8 Q. What units could accomplish the mission? 9 A. How could these characteristics of employment be the 10 best one to perform a specific mission. 11 Q. Okay. And then we have the third one, to propose 12 appointments, removals, assignments, resignations and the rest 13 of it. What did you do to carry out the responsibility to 14 propose appointments, removals and assignments? 15 A. That is referring to the personnel of officers and 16 members of the army, specifically officers. Sometimes there 17 was some civilians who were performing labors of files, 18 payment and something of that, but mostly were about the 19 proposals to the defense minister about the person who were 20 capacitated, more able, that is prepared to occupy any of the 21 places in the army. Some people have some work as members. 22 The school where they went was the navy was something like S4s 23 who had the best grades so we could chose the best man to 24 perform to occupy a specific post within the army, so we could 25 have the best functioning as a whole unit. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1423 1 Q. What does the work functionaries mean? 2 A. Functionaries are the employment, like I say, they -- 3 for example, there was a judicial department, we had a lawyer, 4 we have something that related to the health, we could employ 5 a doctor, medical doctor, for example. These are the kind of 6 functionaries within the armed forces. 7 Q. Who would propose removal of some enlisted men off in 8 the calvary somewhere? 9 A. Enlisted men are not regulated by the commanders of the 10 unit. They don't have a minister, have nothing to do with the 11 number, for example, how many soldiers, how many corporals 12 they have. There is a plan of law which specify how many 13 sergeants, how many corporals, how many soldiers they have in 14 each unit, so a commander have that responsibility to organize 15 their unit with a troop from sergeant down to sergeant. This 16 is -- this mission is only for officers. And persons like 17 doctors, engineers, lawyers could become part of the ministry 18 because we needed some specific functionary in many of the 19 places of what we needed. 20 Q. The staff of the ministry of defense, what type of 21 staff did the ministry of defense have other than the 22 minister, Colonel Garcia and you, the under-minister of 23 defense, was there a staff that supported that department of 24 the military? 25 A. Yes, sir. He had -- for example, the judiciary DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1424 1 department, has a lawyer. Later, we had some lawyers who 2 were -- excuse me, who were members of the army, were officers 3 that was sent to study other countries or were sent to study 4 universities in El Salvador in order to help people who were 5 military men and who were also technical assistance as a 6 lawyer and so forth, what I said. 7 Q. Well, did you have civilian employees and civilian 8 workers and staff? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. That worked in the ministry of defense? 11 A. Yes, sir. We also had some civilian people working 12 over there with five secretaries, messenger, something like 13 that. 14 Q. And when you were in the office of undersecretary, 15 again, 12 or 13 or 14 months that you were there, did you 16 carry out those responsibilities to the best of your ability? 17 A. Well, when we were using -- remember, I want to remind 18 you that it was a situation not normal, it was after a coup. 19 After a coup, there is some problem with handling of the 20 people one side or the other side, Majano, Gutierrez, so we 21 tried the best our means to assemble them to assemble them, to 22 make them join and to make more together for the duties of the 23 army, so they won't be disturbed by problems among them. 24 Q. Well, because of the coup and because of Colonel 25 Majano's feelings and Gutierrez's feelings was there any DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1425 1 divisiveness in the military for a period of time there? 2 A. Yes, there was some divisiveness, but we're trying to 3 get together to avoid anything that could be discontent among 4 them. Remember, there was this COPEFA, Permanent Council of 5 the Armed Forces, who was trying to help or some time 6 interfere with the minister of defense, because they said they 7 were representatives of the army, and the minister of defense 8 was a help from the army. 9 Q. I guess my question is how did this divisiveness affect 10 the ministry of defense? In other words, did it cause 11 additional problems, did it cause additional problems in the 12 military, that's all I'm asking? 13 A. Yes, sir, as a matter of fact, remember, when the -- 14 when you have two brothers -- three of your sons have problem, 15 you don't feel -- you have to be a referee among them trying 16 to get them together. And remember as I was telling you that 17 it was not a normal situation. There were some demonstrations 18 sort of like there used to be after every coup, there was 19 demonstrations, and this time, there was a divisiveness coming 20 from General Romero government, was some social unstability, 21 demonstrations, killing of guard, national guard, killing of 22 police, and robbing the weapons. There was some of these 23 things that maintained always the army in disarray, I don't 24 know if that is the right word, but trying to be more 25 efficient, trying to avoid this kind of associations of the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1426 1 members of the security forces. 2 Q. Well, what was the solution, how was the divisiveness 3 corrected so that the army was back in a normal functioning 4 force, if it was? 5 A. We were trying always to make them together, and there 6 was a situation at the beginning, this COPEFA group integrated 7 by the young members of the army made something -- a mistake, 8 and they lost accepting way the power, so they took the jump, 9 one of responsibilities of the minister of defense and -- 10 relating to the third of faculties or duties to propose an 11 appointment, that was my proposal, my duty to make this 12 proposal about nominating different places, the office that 13 was going to occupy a specific space. They did the first 14 three general orders. And what happened, I said at the 15 beginning that every one that goes into a coup tries to do 16 that for the armed purposes, for their own benefit. They made 17 the order, and they assigned them to the best places in the 18 capitol. They representatives of all the country, but the 19 order, they came to San Salvador. The next order was 20 something like -- and if they want the same. And that time, I 21 told the minister, I advise him, Mr. Minister, this is your 22 responsibility, they're taking your command, you're not 23 functioning as minister, you need to make the general order 24 yourself. By that time, almost all of the young officers were 25 in San Salvador, and they had as their unit -- I mean it was DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1427 1 kind of a democracy in that moment in the election that have 2 to be done. So they have to select a member of every unit in 3 the country, but the young people have left, occupy those 4 places in San Salvador. The new men who were elected to 5 become that group, COPEFA, had the minister then to have to 6 assume their own responsibilities and not taking them as young 7 personal -- as young officers of the army. That's the way 8 there was some solution to the divisiveness as it was before. 9 Q. At this period of time, was there a civil war going on 10 or civil disturbance taking place? 11 A. Well, yes, sir, there was a disturbance, as I told you, 12 as I said here, it came from the problems that General Romero 13 was having during his term as president, and they were 14 degrading some of the movements, movements that supposedly 15 were fighting for their rights, for their benefits, fighting 16 for their rights, but in reality, they were obeying the orders 17 of some specific organization that had contact with the 18 communists. I would not say they were communists, but they 19 were members who were following at the time an order from some 20 people who were communists and who had relationship with the 21 Sandinistas in Nicaragua, with Castro in Cuba, and sometimes 22 some like the president of the communist party in El Salvador 23 flew to China, to Libya to get some help. 24 Q. Well, the question I want to know is how did -- how did 25 this condition in the military with people vying for power DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1428 1 affect the army's ability to effectively handle civil 2 disturbances in El Salvador? That's all I mean. How was the 3 army able to deal with that with a dispute in the officers of 4 the military? 5 A. Well, we have some problem. The problem because the 6 army was not equipped at that time with enough equipment to 7 hold the -- to make front, to confront the demonstration to 8 these strikes, to these occupation minister, to occupation 9 embassy that they were doing, so we tried to get from the 10 United States equipment so we could handle in the very best 11 way the demonstration, this kind of actions of the opposition 12 to the government. 13 Q. Okay. Would you put up Article 186 on the screen? 14 Now, Mr. Carranza, this Article 186 of the code of 15 military justice in El Salvador has also been presented to the 16 jury and discussed, and I want you to explain what this 17 Article 186 applies -- who it applies to and what the meaning 18 of it is, all right? 19 A. Yes, sir. The application of the disciplinary 20 punishment. Disciplinary punishment is something that is not 21 grave, something like in cases have to do with violations 22 committed by officers falls upon the minister and 23 undersecretary of defense, the corps commanders and the 24 commanders of military officers. Specifically for the 25 minister or myself as the undersecretary of defense was the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1429 1 termination of employment, as disciplinary punishment was only 2 done by the minister or by me. Otherwise, the commanders 3 could do the -- the corps commanders could do their own 4 discipline in their units. And the minister and -- both could 5 do the same at the higher level. It has to be, of course, 6 according to the level where the violation is committed. 7 Q. Well, who presented -- in other words, it says the 8 application of disciplinary punishment in cases having to do 9 with violations of officers. Who submits those violations for 10 disciplinary punishment? 11 A. Well, I understand it could be -- it should be a 12 system, an accusation, procedure, kind of tribunal, kind of 13 maybe -- any procedure, disciplinary procedure going to the 14 termination of the ability or not of the person who could 15 be -- who could be accused of something, investigation, and 16 then according to the termination, whether he's guilty or not 17 to establish punishment. 18 Q. Well, does that application of disciplinary punishment 19 apply to every infraction that some officer commits no matter 20 what branch they belong to and no matter what it is, such as 21 drunkenness or misbehavior of any kind? 22 A. No, sir, that's not some specific minor violation. For 23 example, if you go late to a place, I mean to his duties, not 24 to perform his duty very well. For example, they are acting 25 as security in the security post, they can be handled by the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1430 1 core commander. They just only take -- keep a record. Unless 2 there is something made by the officers, then the commander 3 can punish that fault and communicate to or -- to the 4 minister, to the ministry, so they keep a record of faults. 5 Q. Are you saying the commanders of the units have 6 responsibility to report certain infractions of the officers, 7 to make a record and report it? 8 A. Yes, sir, that is to keep, they call it services sheet 9 in where we have not only the punishment, but every fault, 10 every action that the officer has, every honorific position 11 that he occupies, everything about the officer is in this 12 services sheet. 13 Q. So it only applies to officers and not ordinary troop 14 or members of the military? 15 A. The services sheet is only for the officers. The 16 soldiers, the troop goes in another category, they always keep 17 records in the unit, in order to keep the track, and because 18 sometimes there might be -- have the possibility to be 19 promoted, in order to have this election, we had to see the 20 register so we could select the best members of the troop to 21 become promoted to corporals, to sergeants and so forth. 22 Q. Can the field commanders of units discipline the 23 troops? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. For infractions that they commit? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1431 1 A. Yes, sir, they are supposed to do that immediately 2 after knowing what is happening and inform to the next level, 3 in the case of the higher violation; otherwise, they don't 4 have to inform. 5 Q. Now, that says termination of employment as 6 disciplinary punishment may only be imposed by the minister or 7 the undersecretary of defense? 8 A. Yes, sir -- 9 Q. Excuse me, is that of an officer only? 10 A. Yes, sir. It is only of the officer, because that is 11 hard to do to make an officer to quit. 12 Q. Well, can the director of the national police terminate 13 an officer that is in the national police that is guilty of 14 something that needs to be punished? 15 A. No, sir. They have to be proposed to the minister the 16 demotion, the discharge of any officer. 17 Q. Would that be true of the national guard? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Would it be true of the treasury police? 20 A. Yes, sir, it would be he proposed to the minister of 21 defense, they cannot act in that way. 22 Q. Or the air force? 23 A. The same thing, sir. 24 Q. All right. Okay. Now, while you were the 25 undersecretary, there was the murder of members of the FDR. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1432 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And there was -- there was a serious reaction to that, 3 was there not? 4 A. Yes, sir, because they were important members of a 5 position, and that was a crime, horrific crime committed by, I 6 don't know who, and I don't think it was ever known who did 7 it. 8 Q. Well, but the very nature of the abduction and the 9 killing was a very terrible and serious thing, was it not? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Now, at that time, how long had Ambassador White been 12 the ambassador? Had he only been there a short time? 13 A. Yes, sir, I think it was in November, something like 14 that, and he came about half year maybe for a month, something 15 like that. 16 Q. Well, as a result of that occurrence, was there a 17 meeting with Ambassador White with certain people of the 18 military? 19 A. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, it was very important 20 because we have received some informs that they were really to 21 make a peace talk with us. This gentleman, Mr. White, 22 ambassador of the United States at that time got a meeting 23 with members of the junta, the minister of defense and myself, 24 the undersecretary of defense. In that discussions, we talk 25 about the gravity of the situation, and I suggested, I DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1433 1 requested the investigation, immediate investigation of the 2 death of the killing of those members of the FDR. 3 MR. FARGARSON: May I approach the witness, 4 Your Honor? 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MR. FARGARSON: 7 Q. Colonel Carranza, I want to hand you that state 8 department document that mentions the meeting with the state 9 department, with the ambassador following this terrible event 10 that took place in regard to the FDR members, and you were 11 present at that meeting, were you not, with other people? 12 A. Yes, sir, I was. 13 Q. Was Colonel Garcia also there? 14 A. Yes, sir, he was. 15 Q. And did you make comments that the state department 16 recorded as a result of this meeting? 17 A. Yes, I see here something like that, sir, where I think 18 most of us talked -- said something about that case in that 19 circumstance, in that time. 20 Q. That what? I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. 21 A. Almost everyone who was over there made a statement 22 about this situation. 23 Q. Well, what was your statement? 24 A. It says here, a message from Ambassador White. 25 Vice-minister of Defense Carranza spoke next and at great DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1434 1 length. I have to say that his presentation had made a great 2 deal of sense. He agreed that an investigation of the events 3 of Thursday was required. He said that the ministry of 4 defense was not attempting to deny its responsibility to 5 protect the civilian populous, but that the judicial system 6 had collapsed and there was a wave of crime carried on by the 7 political features of the left and also of the right. He went 8 on to analyze in detail the dangers of communism. The 9 interest that the United States had to have in preventing 10 another Cuba in Central America, and the need to find a 11 mutually satisfactory solution for both the United States and 12 El Salvador. He has stated categorically that he did not 13 reject dialog with any political group, but stress the 14 difference between those who have political opinions and those 15 who killed others for holding country political opinions. 16 Nevertheless, Colonel Carranza said he reviewed my 17 presentation of the United States position as an attempt by a 18 great power to impose its solution on El Salvador. 19 Q. And did -- were those, as far as you can recollect in 20 looking at the documents, accurate comments that were made by 21 you at that meeting? 22 A. Excuse me, could you repeat, sir? 23 Q. I said, as near as you can remember and as near as you 24 can tell, is this state department document which contains 25 what you said at that meeting with the ambassador, is that an DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1435 1 accurate statement to the best of your recollection? 2 A. Yes, sir, it was. 3 Q. Did others also speak that were representatives of the 4 military such as Colonel Garcia, your superior? 5 A. Yes, he spoke also, sir. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And As a matter of fact, I want to make notes that the 8 members of the junta who were the highest level of 9 responsibility in El Salvador were present when I told them we 10 are required to make an investigation of the case. 11 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Was an investigation made 12 by someone? As stated in here, did any group or any police or 13 anyone conduct an investigation into this murder of these men? 14 A. I understand at the beginning when this happened in the 15 morning, there was some police trying to investigate, but I 16 don't remember what it was. They didn't let them go inside to 17 investigate. I mean I'm not sure what happened at that time, 18 but there was police trying to go to investigate, that's the 19 unit that had the responsibility to act in these cases. 20 Q. Well, I guess that was my question, there's a 21 discussion of the desire to have an investigation, my only 22 question is: Was some investigation conducted by someone, 23 whether or not it proved fruitful, that's all I want to know, 24 was an investigation made? 25 A. Like I said, at the beginning it was, but this meeting DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1436 1 was later, and I don't recall whether there was -- they did 2 anything. It was not my responsibility to do that. My 3 responsibility was to advise them, and I did it at the highest 4 level. 5 Q. So the meeting that is discussed in this state 6 department document took place some time after the murder of 7 these men? 8 A. It was maybe one or two days. 9 Q. Okay. And are you saying some investigation had 10 already started? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. But you're not sure if any other investigations were 13 instituted following that? 14 A. Later, no, sir. 15 Q. Okay. 16 MR. FARGARSON: Your Honor, I would like to 17 move the admission of this as an exhibit. 18 THE COURT: It is received without objection as 19 Exhibit 50. 20 (Exhibit Number 50 was marked. Description: 21 Telegram.) 22 BY MR. FARGARSON: 23 Q. Now, how long were you in the position of the 24 undersecretary of defense? 25 A. It was 15 months. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1437 1 Q. Fifteen months? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Following this murder of the FDR men, was there any 4 type of escalation in the civil disturbance or civil 5 difficulties or things of that nature? 6 A. Yes, sir, because of that, I think, and also in last 7 part, because the Sandinistas were powerful in Nicaragua, 8 they -- the place, Somozo presidency, they were able to send 9 weapons and men to El Salvador, so the activity of the left 10 was increasing. We had more problems in the country. 11 Q. And what, if any, effect or how did that affect the 12 function of the military, and in particular, the ministry of 13 defense if it had any special effect? 14 A. Well, we had more problems. We had to try to recruit 15 more people because we are being attacked in many places. 16 They were using more sophisticated ways of combat. They begun 17 acting with guerillas. They were using at that time car 18 bombs, they were utilizing some system they call catapults. 19 There was something with enough power to send the blocks of 20 propane, propane in a specific way. They could send somewhere 21 else larger, intermediate distances, and with that provoke 22 explosions in buildings, garrisons, places, factories that 23 they didn't like. 24 Q. So did the military have to recruit more troops or do 25 anything to protect the public, to protect the nation? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1438 1 A. Yeah, we had to be more active in patrolling the 2 streets, patrolling the roads and the interior, protecting 3 important places, protecting personnel, and I think trying to 4 reduce wherever possible the activities of the guerilla or the 5 opposition who was acting by violent means at that time. 6 Q. And what about the United States, did the ministry of 7 defense or the department of defense have to coordinate any 8 effort with the United States who had an interest in El 9 Salvador? 10 A. Yes, sir, with a little history. President Carter 11 stopped -- he stopped the shift that came with weapons and 12 ammunition to Somozo, and President Carter ordered to stop 13 that shift and sent back to Iran where it was coming. The 14 national guard in Nicaragua didn't have the means to defend 15 themselves, and Nicaragua failed in the hands of the 16 communists, Frente Sandinsta De Uberacion Nacional. As a 17 consequence with the fall of Nicaragua, they were able to send 18 weapons to here. What we had, the ministry by that time, a 19 great president, Mr. Reagan was in here, elected president, 20 and we had the opportunity to receive military aid. Mr. 21 Carter in our situation had stopped the military aid, but then 22 at the end of his period, he continued again the aid. 23 THE COURT: They have actually asked me to come 24 back to the back and see somebody for just a couple of 25 minutes. We will take a very short break. I'm talking DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1439 1 about five minutes at the most, and we will come back. We 2 will take our lunch break at 12:20, and it will be fairly 3 short, it will be -- can y'all do lunch in 55 minutes 4 since it is already in the building, is that okay? We 5 will make it 55 minutes. We will make it today at 12:20. 6 I will be back in about four or five minutes. We will let 7 you be excused. Don't talk about the case with anybody 8 else. 9 THE CLERK: All rise. This honorable court 10 stands in recess. 11 (Recess taken at 11:45 a.m. until 11:50 a.m.) 12 THE COURT: All right. Have the witness come 13 back in. My projection now is that we will actually 14 finish the proof on Monday, is that your projection? 15 MR. ESQUIVEL: I would think so, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: It depends on how long the final 17 two witnesses go. I think we're in pretty good shape. 18 Y'all just continue to think, and we will talk about that 19 at an afternoon break. 20 MS. BLUM: Your Honor, the only issue that I 21 want to raise with you is there was some changes made to 22 the jury instructions. I think a discussion about them 23 might be a little bit substantial. I think we have to be 24 sure that we have sufficient time to hammer that out today 25 in order that both sides are going to know exactly what DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1440 1 can be said in closing. 2 THE COURT: Exactly, we will probably do 3 that -- figure out when we need to at the end of the day, 4 so it sounds like we may be carrying over a little bit and 5 give us a little time to do that. I understand. Bring 6 the jury in, go for another 30 minutes. We will have the 7 witness come back around. 8 (Jury in at 11:50 a.m.) 9 THE COURT: You may be seated. I needed that, 10 and I do appreciate it. 11 BY MR. FARGARSON: 12 Q. Mr. Carranza, let me ask you this question, I think I 13 asked you before, but I'm not sure you answered it. What 14 other people were employed or working in the office of the 15 ministry of defense as either staff people, technicians, 16 secretaries, whatever was there to operate the ministry of 17 defense, how many people were there? 18 A. I couldn't say the numbers there, but we had enough 19 people to handle all of the, let's say, letters, 20 communications from the minister. We had telephone operators, 21 messengers, lawyers, department of -- judicial department, 22 clerical people working in the files, but I can't recall the 23 number of people who were in the ministry. 24 Q. Well, when you were the under-minister of defense, did 25 General Garcia ever issue an order advising the army to commit DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1441 1 human rights violations against the populous? 2 A. Yes, sir, there were several general orders to all 3 of -- the general ordered something close to all of the units 4 with the specific instruction for the minister to all of the 5 members of the army. That order goes usually every end of the 6 month, and raised -- certainly, we sent some orders to the -- 7 all of the units asking about respect to human rights of the 8 people, instruction how to handle the cases, and later in the 9 term when we received some complaint, for example, that some 10 members of the army had weapons inside of the ambulance from 11 the Red Cross because they were carrying some soldiers sick or 12 wounded to a hospital, the Red Cross complained to the 13 minister, and he ordered that anyone going inside the 14 ambulance not to carry any kind of weapons in order to 15 maintain the neutrality of the ambulances. 16 Q. Well, I think you answered the question a little bit 17 different way from what I asked it. I think I asked you if he 18 ever issued for the military to violate -- 19 A. No, absolutely not, sir. It was to the contrary, we 20 were trying to avoid any kind of violations, the Geneva 21 Convention. But even without the Geneva Convention, we were 22 people compassionate and they would not think about making 23 damage or hurt anyone. 24 Q. Well, we've talked a little bit about the murders of 25 the men who belonged to the FDR, and also during the period of DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1442 1 time that you were the undersecretary, other members of the 2 families had terrible things happen to them, and I want to ask 3 you about some of those occurrences, all right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Ms. Chavez's family members were murdered in Ahuachapan 6 on July 26th, if I have the date correct, of 1980. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. What information came to the attention of the minister 9 of defense or your attention at that period of time? 10 A. To myself, there was nothing until December the 3rd -- 11 December the 10th, 2003, when I received a copy of this 12 summons that was presented to me. 13 Q. Well, did you hear anything about Ms. Chavez's family 14 in that period of time in 1980 when you were undersecretary of 15 the minister of defense? 16 A. No, sir, I never heard anything. 17 Q. Was there any talk in the office or any memorandums or 18 anything that you remember? 19 A. Absolutely not, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Calderon's father was murdered on September the 21 11th of 1980. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. What about that event, did any information about 24 Mr. Calderon's murder come to -- 25 A. The same situation, we had never no list of that case DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1443 1 over there. 2 Q. Well, did you see any information from General Garcia 3 who was apparently contacted by a relative of Mr. Calderon? 4 Did General Garcia tell you anything or let you have any 5 information about that? 6 A. No, sir, absolutely not. 7 Q. Do you know what he knew? 8 A. Now, I know, but at that time, I didn't know anything. 9 Q. Well, is what you're saying now you know what you heard 10 Mr. Calderon say on the witness stand? 11 A. Yes, Mr. Calderon said that -- 12 MR. ESQUIVEL: Objection, Your Honor, calls for 13 speculation. 14 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 15 BY MR. FARGARSON: 16 Q. Now, don't say what he said, all I said is did you hear 17 what he said on the witness stand, you don't need to repeat 18 it. 19 A. Yes, sir, I heard it. 20 Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Santos was arrested in the shopping 21 mall on September 25, 1980 and taken into custody and 22 tortured, as she said. Now, what information came to the 23 attention of the ministry of defense in 1980 while you were 24 there, what you heard, what you saw, what you know? 25 A. I was the undersecretary of defense and never heard DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1444 1 anything about her. 2 Q. Well, when was your first knowledge of the tortures and 3 the horrors that Ms. Santos had? 4 A. I didn't know anything until December 10th, 2003, sir. 5 Q. And what about Mr. Calderon that I just asked about, 6 when was the first time you learned anything about the murder 7 of Mr. Calderon's father? 8 A. It was in the same date, when I was presented this 9 summon of law. 10 Q. Now, other than Mr. Alvarado, who we will talk about a 11 little bit later on, with regard to all of the plaintiffs, 12 when you were in the ministry of defense, did you know 13 anything about what happened to them or did any information 14 come to the minister of defense office that you saw or that 15 you were informed about? 16 A. No, sir, not anything at all. 17 Q. Now, you stated that you were in the ministry of 18 defense as the undersecretary for 12, 14 months -- 14 months, 19 something like that? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. How many months? 22 A. Excuse me, could you say it again, please? 23 Q. All right. You were the under-ministry of defense in 24 the office of the ministry of defense for what space of time? 25 A. For 10 months, more or less, sir. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1445 1 Q. Okay. And what assignment did you get after that? 2 A. I became president of ANTEL. 3 Q. Now, how did you become president of ANTEL? 4 A. It was -- I was in the order the same way, the same way 5 that the -- that we received orders through the general order. 6 It was on January the 3rd -- I think January the 3rd, 1981. 7 Q. Now, was the ANTEL that you received orders to go to 8 the same place that you had worked previously as a director 9 or -- I mean as a manager? 10 A. Yes, sir, the same institution. 11 Q. But do I understand that this time you were going to 12 occupy a different position? 13 A. Yes, sir, presidency. 14 Q. And so what would that mean, that you would be the 15 chief -- 16 A. Yes, sir, responsible person for the functioning of the 17 company. 18 Q. Okay. And had anything about the ANTEL organization 19 changed at the time you were separated -- when you changed -- 20 A. No, sir, there was no change, it was the same kind of 21 institution. 22 Q. And was it still a place where mainly civilians worked? 23 A. Yes, sir. The only officers were myself and the 24 general manager. 25 Q. Who is -- who had been the president immediately before DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1446 1 you, if you recall? 2 A. I think it was -- I'm not sure, sir. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. I think it might have been Colonel Garcia -- no. 5 Q. Well, if you don't know -- 6 A. No, no, sir, I don't know. I don't remember. 7 Q. All right. Now, how long did you occupy the position 8 of president of ANTEL? 9 A. I was there until October the 18th, 1982. 10 Q. And as president of ANTEL, what were your duties and 11 your responsibilities? 12 A. Well, I had to manage all the functions of the company, 13 make decisions like the one I took that period, I had to make 14 important decision that was to go digital in the system, the 15 digital system which changed completely the system of the 16 institution to that -- to the modern means of communications. 17 Q. Where is the headquarters of ANTEL? 18 A. In El Salvador, it is in the center of the government, 19 center of the government, it is beside the ministry of 20 interior, which was the ministry under which ANTEL was 21 located. 22 Q. Since it's a service to the general public, are any of 23 the facilities protected by the military or is the office 24 protected by the military? 25 A. No, sir, we had a security system in the ANTEL, use DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1447 1 facility to protect the properties of the institution. 2 Q. And what is the security system? 3 A. Well, take care of -- protect the important 4 installations like the air station that was located about 50 5 kilometers from San Salvador; the main building in the central 6 government, maybe a little storage we had close to San 7 Salvador about 20 kilometers. 8 Q. As a result of the civil war, civil disturbance, were 9 their attacks on that type of service to disrupt the 10 communication of the state? 11 A. No, sir. It was a small group that we only had small 12 group, and as ANTEL was -- they used the collections of ANTEL 13 to communicate. I think that's why they never attack in a 14 very strong force those installations. They damage only the 15 mixed communications like panels, distribution panels in the 16 streets, towers of transmission, for example. If there was 17 any important installation that could be -- for example, ANTEL 18 that we had in the pekacha (spelled phonetically), which is 19 the highest part of the San Salvador, the army have that 20 protection because we did not have enough power or arms to 21 protect it. 22 Q. Now, after your assignment at ANTEL, what was your next 23 position or assignment? 24 A. The next assignment was to go to CEL as president. 25 Q. What is that? DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1448 1 A. It is a -- it's Comision Electrificadora De Lempa, 2 electrification company of Lempa. Lempa is the main river 3 that crosses in El Salvador, which El Salvador has taken 4 advantage of and has been three dams in order to produce 5 energy that enable us to produce a very low price energy for 6 the people. 7 Q. Well, was that a demotion, a promotion or just a 8 lateral assignment? 9 A. Sir, I said at the beginning every place that I was 10 ordered was a pride for me to go, because as a member of the 11 army, I'm loyal and obedient, subordinate, and I was accepting 12 every challenge without commenting, thinking anything was 13 wrong. 14 Q. Okay. Well, I can understand that. Who was it that 15 sent you to that place? 16 A. I guess it was the minister of defense. 17 Q. And was that still Colonel Garcia? 18 A. Yes, sir, it was the same. 19 Q. If I call that the Lempa River Authority, would that be 20 a proper name for the place where you went? 21 A. CEL, Comision Electrificadora De Lempa. 22 Q. Okay. And what did you do there? 23 A. I had to -- I had to try to do my best in the 24 functioning of the system. At that time, CEL was one of the 25 institutions, it was under the supervision of minister of DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1449 1 economy. I was serving in the minister of -- the minister of 2 economy, and it was in the same area of -- the building was 3 close to the building of ANTEL. And when I was over there, I 4 established a coordination among the similar units in the 5 Central America in order to have the possibility to help each 6 other in the case of a problem caused by either the conditions 7 or by attacks. In that activity, I went several times to 8 Honduras, to Guatemala and in some cases, they had problem 9 with the border, and we helped them. Sometimes we have a lot 10 of problems with the other border and the other country help 11 us. So there was kind of a mucho help between the governments 12 of Central America. I did this because in ANTEL, we have an 13 organization paid by all of them, organization was called 14 Comision Tecnica De Telecomunicasiones De Centro America. 15 Then we got commissions of the -- telecommunication of Central 16 America. We tried to get cheaper or less expensive equipment 17 for telecommunications. We had made this group. We had a 18 school where we were training all of the members of Central 19 America. It was located in San Salvador in order to maintain 20 a good relationship with all of the governments and so provide 21 better service at a lower cost. 22 Q. Well, did this electrical facility apply -- I mean 23 supply electricity to any place other than El Salvador? 24 A. Well, it was some kind of interconnection for some. 25 It's not normal, but in some places where they didn't have the DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1450 1 possibility to send their lines, permission lines, we were 2 able to help them supply electricity to other specific place. 3 Q. Well, were you to do anything specific or just oversee 4 the operation of the facility? 5 A. I had to oversee everything, sir. This field of 6 operation, I did not have previous knowledge, so my kind of 7 work was mostly managerial. In ANTEL, I had little experience 8 because of my father work as a telegraph operator, and also 9 because as a young man, I was maybe 16 years old when I was 10 working as messenger of ANTEL, and I was proud to be the only 11 one at that time that had been messenger, which is the lowest 12 job in the ANTEL after the presidency. 13 Q. So how long were you there CEL? 14 A. I was there until 31st of May, 1983. 15 Q. And when you left CEL, where did you go? 16 A. I went to the treasury police. 17 Q. And why did you go to the treasury police? 18 A. I had the possible -- I was not promoted to general at 19 that time because I didn't have enough time in the army. I 20 was at this time working in ANTEL and CEL, took me some time 21 to where I could become for the time of service I had to be to 22 have in order to be promoted. I was lacking some time. And I 23 asked Vides Casanova. Vides Casanova was the minister at this 24 time, the possibility to go again to the army in order to make 25 the time and be promoted to general. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1451 1 Q. Well, there must have been some time when the office of 2 the position of general was enacted in El Salvador, I thought 3 colonel was the highest position in the military? 4 A. No, sir, at that time -- by that time, I had already 5 been promoted several generals. I think at least two, and 6 later there was some person promoted to general. 7 Q. Okay. Was -- where had General Garcia gone or Colonel 8 Garcia, whichever one it was? 9 A. It was general at the time, and I think he came to the 10 United States. I'm not sure whether he was still in El 11 Salvador or had come here to the United States. 12 Q. Okay. So in speaking to Minister of Defense Casanova 13 about having an army position, what happened? 14 A. Well, he called me to his office, and I -- he offered 15 me the treasury police command. He said that he needed to 16 make some changes over there, and he offered me the post. 17 Q. Well, when you -- when he mentioned the treasury police 18 and suggested that you go there, what was the reputation of 19 the treasury police? 20 A. Well, it had a bad reputation, sir, that's why he asked 21 me, he called me in, he says, Nicolas, I know you -- 22 MR. ESQUIVEL: Objection, Your Honor, hearsay. 23 THE COURT: Objection sustained, that would be 24 hearsay. 25 BY MR. FARGARSON: DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1452 1 Q. You can't say -- you can't get into a conversation. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. And relate a conversation, that would be hearsay. So 4 as a result of the meeting with him and discussing the 5 treasury police, did you accept the assignment? 6 A. Yes, sir, I did. It was a big challenge, but I knew I 7 was capable to do it. 8 Q. Okay. And when did you take over the -- is it called 9 director? 10 A. Director of the treasury police, yes, sir. 11 Q. Did you have any specific plans when you went to the 12 treasury police? 13 A. Yes, sir. I tried to -- first of all, I had to know 14 the conditions of the place. I had to see, examine the 15 situation, try to start with some kind of training, education 16 and get procedures for handling the people, maybe of observing 17 the rules, maybe changing the rules according to the 18 situation. 19 Q. All right. So in putting that plan into place -- let 20 me back up. When was it that you assumed responsibility as 21 director of the treasury police? 22 A. It was the 31st of May, 1983. 23 Q. And how long were you the director of the treasury 24 police? 25 A. One year. DIRECT - NICOLAS CARRANZA 1453 1 Q. Okay. And so in carrying out your plan, what did you 2 initially do as the director? 3 A. When